Mark Kleiman presents his interpretation of the Kerry Doctrine:
Posted by DeLong at October 4, 2004 03:10 PM | TrackBackMark A. R. Kleiman: The Kerry doctrine: Defend the country. Promote freedom. Pay attention to the facts. Listen to the experts. Make sure your buddies have your back. Plan for victory. Tell the truth.
Wow!!! Kerry campaign, are you reading this.
Posted by: JWC at October 4, 2004 03:16 PMEarlier this aft I read on CNN.com Condoleeza Rice's comment that she didn't understand the "global test," explaining yourself to the world.
It's time for some people to write CNN and point out that Rice presumably does not understand the writers of the Declaration of Independence.
They didn't ask permission to claim independence, but they knew they'd get nowhere without explaining their logic and position.
Posted by: sm at October 4, 2004 03:25 PMAnd dont forget to believe in fairies!
Posted by: Giles at October 4, 2004 04:03 PMIndeed, why does Condi still have a job?
I think it's absolutely marvelous that Bush is running around shouting "Global test!" at the top of his lungs. It's making a lot of thinking people who were supporting him begin to really question that support. It makes them see that Bush is either hopelessly disingenuous, or so shockingly stupid that the country may be in very real danger.
So let him pound on that point for another two weeks before he realizes that it's severely damaging his campaign.
Posted by: Derelict at October 4, 2004 05:48 PM"And dont forget to believe in fairies!"
If I were more of a hack, I'd suggest that Bush supporters believing that those things equate with fantasy tells you all you need to know about how serious they are.
Posted by: EH at October 4, 2004 05:55 PM'Global Test' equals '...a decent Respect for the Opinion of Mankind'.
Jefferson was a better prose stylist than Kerry -- but then yJefferson was a better prose stylist than most of us.
Posted by: Davis X. Machina at October 4, 2004 07:07 PMYes, but Jefferson was from a time when people had longer attention spans than. . . um, whatever I was talking about.
Posted by: Dragonchild at October 4, 2004 07:14 PMStill, after a few days when the GOP didn't know what to say about the debate, they've settled on a line and are cranking up their fearsome machinery of lies, hysteria, and screaming. I don't recall Adlai Stevenson's exact line, but the general notion that thinking people don't constitute a majority of voters is worth recalling as we face this moronic onslaught.
And yes, Rice, who assured us that the tubes could only be used for nuclear weapons even though she didn't bother to find out what the disagreement with that position was certainly shouldn't still be working in government, but then again, that's been true since it came out that she didn't read the NIE on Iraq and it hasn't made any difference....
Posted by: howard at October 4, 2004 07:19 PMEven a casual inspection of the graphic that accompanied the NYT article reveals that there was no way the tubes could have been used for a centrifuge. They were too narrow, too thick, too long, and had an anodized coating which reacts with uranium gas in a bad way. After Saddam let the inspectors in, they immediately went to the rocket making place, and found thousands of the tubes. They were used for engines, and the anodizing was to protect them from deterioration. Sure enough, there were very many engines which were in various states of decay.
There was no genuine controversy. The experts said the tubes were not for centrifuges, and some bozo with a bachelor's from someplace in Kentucky was the opposition.
That article should have been written before this disaster, and the NYT almost admits it.
I remember reading somewhere that some group or other did a poll on people's reaction to various vital American documents such as the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and so forth, and people flipped out. They were like, "whoa, you can't say *that*!"
Posted by: praktike at October 4, 2004 07:36 PM"Kerry does not know 10% of what Rice knows. The global test is a joke. The fact that it cannot be implemented or applied to real life situations should be proof enough for those who are fact-based.
"I have not heard a liberal admit yet that this test has problems. Tell me are you guys that afraid of the facts. Must you always be right even whenm you are wrong."
I'll tell you what is definitely right: might does NOT make right, and if we cannot justify our actions to the world community, then we are no better than a street bully.
And maybe Condi is ten times smarter than John Kerry: I don't know how you would measure such a thing. I do know that she lies like a rug.
PAUL BREMER JUST JOINED THE RANKS OF THE SHRILL!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7053-2004Oct4.html
Posted by: KevinNYC at October 4, 2004 10:27 PM"I don't recall Adlai Stevenson's exact line"
Ahem:
"All intelligent people in this country will vote for you."
"That's not good enough. I need a majority."
The Kerry campaign in a nutshell.
Posted by: Dragonchild at October 4, 2004 11:20 PMhttp://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/91/910507Arc1393.html
I remember that poll; seems to me it was of members of some branch of the armed service, but I don't remember. This is somewhat similar.
"Pay attention to the facts. Listen to the experts." -- Kleinman
I'm all for this. Too bad Kerry isn't listening.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2105434/
The Dems are purging everyone who was against the war from the party leadership.
http://www.tikkun.org/index.cfm/action/current/article/218.html
Kerry ignored Ritter.
Some not-so-subtle shifts in view underway among Bush henchmen on the way into the VP debate. Bremer says there weren't enough troops on the ground to establish civil order after Baghdad fell. Rumsfeld says there is no evidence of a connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq. As noted somewhere around here already, CNN says Cheney will say that it is "possible to disagree" about the situation in Iraq or the need for war or some such thing. Did things go so badly at the first debate that the only hope is to say that Bush mispoke all through that debate? Oh, boy.
Posted by: kharris at October 5, 2004 04:30 AMAs the caliphony rises, just remember, the cow jumped over the moon.
Seriously, the entire ruling elite seems to be increasingly unhinged. They absolutely hate born again christians. And here they are, clinging to these creepy people, trying desperately to use them as tools.
They hate this.
They all want to be utter libertines and live in Paris.
Posted by: Elaine Supkis at October 5, 2004 04:41 AMMy, my... could it be that Paul Bremer is the next member of you fabulous Order of the Shrill? http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=2&u=/nm/20041005/pl_nm/iraq_bremer_troops_dc
Posted by: Bojan at October 5, 2004 04:50 AMYou bunch of self important windbags! Why don't you Kerry folks just cut to the chase and say,"Fuck the sand-niggers. Let em have their fucked up animal society. They're way to stupid to handle self government. No use wasting American blood on this bunch of ingrates. Let's just pull out of the entire mid east, and tell Mexico, Texas, Alaska, and California that their oil has just been Nationalized. I'm a patriot, and I'll pay 3.50 a gallon as long as those camel-fuckers will have to start blaming someone else for their problems. As a culture, they're a bunch of pigs. Prove me otherwise, please. Let the Jews fight their own battles. What's going to happen to the price of oil when the U.S stops buying? Who gives a shit!! Let France and Germany deal with it.
Posted by: paul at October 5, 2004 07:35 AMYou bunch of self important windbags! Why don't you Kerry folks just cut to the chase and say,"Fuck the sand-niggers. Let em have their fucked up animal society. They're way to stupid to handle self government. No use wasting American blood on this bunch of ingrates. Let's just pull out of the entire mid east, and tell Mexico, Texas, Alaska, and California that their oil has just been Nationalized. I'm a patriot, and I'll pay 3.50 a gallon as long as those camel-fuckers will have to start blaming someone else for their problems. As a culture, they're a bunch of pigs. Prove me otherwise, please. Let the Jews fight their own battles. What's going to happen to the price of oil when the U.S stops buying? Who gives a shit!! Let France and Germany deal with it.
Posted by: paul at October 5, 2004 07:36 AMLook what the cat drug in!
Posted by: Zizka at October 5, 2004 07:45 AMSomehow I think France and Germany would deal with it just fine if the U.S. stopped buying oil.
Posted by: Barbara at October 5, 2004 07:50 AMIs Wolfowitz saying things that are harmful to his fellow Jews? Click here for more.
Posted by: The Nose at October 5, 2004 07:55 AMIs Wolfowitz saying things that are harmful to his fellow Jews? Click here for more.
Posted by: The Nose at October 5, 2004 07:58 AMWhat if at the last minute Bush agrees that the war isn't working out and that he'll pull US troops out of attacking, but use them only for training iraqis, and out of iraq after the iraqis are trained?
The wingnuts would fall in behind him like commies taking the new party line. Even the ones who didn't like it would have no alternative but Kerry, so they'd stay with him or not vote. And how many of them really want us fighting in iraq?
Bush would lose his aura of utter inflexibility. He'd lose the iraq albatross. The public wouldn't have time to get things sorted out before the election.
It would be a bold move, bolder than invading iraq in the first place. Would Cheney try something like that?
I wish they'd try that. They won't. They need the image of power they've built up. Even if it is in ruins.
US perception of the current situation -- in the media, in official circles -- is months behind the reality on the ground. People are beginning to notice how bad things were before the Abu Ghraib revelations came out. They still have not internalized the vast disaster that Abu Ghraib was.
Posted by: sm at October 5, 2004 09:02 AMThe Kerry Middle-East doctrine: 'I, John Kerry, pledge allegiance to Israel.' From the Kerry campaign website:
" GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOR AMERICA’S SUPPORT FOR OUR ALLY ISRAEL
• We will never pressure Israel to compromise its security.
• We will never expect Israel to negotiate for peace without a credible partner.
• We will always work to provide the political and military and economic help for Israel’s fight against terror.
• We will restore American leadership in the Middle East because Israel’s security is bolstered when we lead and America is safer."
Posted by: Eleuthera at October 5, 2004 09:27 AMAs a Kerry supporter who enjoyed watching him trounce the President, I really, really wished he had not said something as stupid as "global test."
He prepared hours for that debate, and I can't imagine he thought "Gotta make sure I get in the phrase 'global test' so that I get those French electoral votes."
Posted by: remo williams at October 5, 2004 09:29 AM"Global test" was a mistake built on literacy. "Global" means other things than simply "worldwide." An expression in the common parlance that is often used in the same way is "big picture." Even so, not to recognize how easily an expression like "global test" could be twisted by a gang of word-twisting thugs is pretty stupid.
Posted by: kharris at October 5, 2004 09:38 AM> hey were too narrow, too thick, too long, and had
> an anodized coating which reacts with uranium gas
> in a bad way. After Saddam let the inspectors in,
> they immediately went to the rocket making place,
> and found thousands of the tubes.
81mm has also been the standard size for light air-launched rockets since the middle of WWII. Anyone with a passing familiarity with the US armoury would know that.
Cranky
Posted by: Cranky Observer at October 5, 2004 10:46 AMPaul:
I don’t think hard core “get out of Iraq” liberals have really given the consequences of pullout as much thought as you have. And even though they would not express your extremely negative feelings, the underlying basis of a pullout is as you say- that Iraqis are not worthy of having a better life. There was a posting here a while back, I can’t find it now, about people in an Iraqi town having a stake in their life, and the response here was overwhelmingly negative. Can’t you see how deeply insulting that must be, to tell people they are not capable or responsible for having any control over their lives?
We gave them such a shitty life with setting them up with Hussein, and then now they have an even shittier life because we didn’t have enough people to keep out the asshole swarm that descended on them.
How can we leave after all that? I don’t think Kerry will do it, I think he will follow along with what Bush is doing, and will try to get other countries to help. I think this is one area that, if he is elected, he will greatly disappoint his liberal constituency.
Paul:
I don’t think hard core “get out of Iraq” liberals have really given the consequences of pullout as much thought as you have. And even though they would not express your extremely negative feelings, the underlying basis of a pullout is as you say- that Iraqis are not worthy of having a better life. There was a posting here a while back, I can’t find it now, about people in an Iraqi town having a stake in their life, and the response here was overwhelmingly negative. Can’t you see how deeply insulting that must be, to tell people they are not capable or responsible for having any control over their lives?
We gave them such a shitty life with setting them up with Hussein, and then now they have an even shittier life because we didn’t have enough people to keep out the asshole swarm that descended on them.
How can we leave after all that? I don’t think Kerry will do it, I think he will follow along with what Bush is doing, and will try to get other countries to help. I think this is one area that, if he is elected, he will greatly disappoint his liberal constituency.
What is our army accomplishing in iraq?
Are we protecting iraqis from terrorists? Mostly not. We can't even protect the iraqis who work for us. We do kill terrorists who attack us.
Are we protecting the iraqi government (that we appointed) from insurgents? Mostly not. We can't stop car bombs etc. We do kill insurgents who attack us.
It isn't clear that the US army is part of the solution in iraq.
Bush passed sovereignty to the iraqi government. Unless he was lying it's no longer our choice what to do for the iraqis. The iraqi government will make choices and we can go along or we can leave. Maybe they'll tell us to leave anyway. That might be their second order of business after they get an assembly set up. First is to vote whether to accept the president's choice for prime minister. Second is to tell the US military to go away.
There are people who claim that american cities are more violent than iraqi cities. How would you feel if the chinese army came in to restore order? And whenever violence broke out they shot everything that moved, and most of them didn't learn english? Would you feel they were restoring order?
It looks like we'll get some kind of elections in late january. If they're free elections there's a very strong chance that iraq will shortly no longer be our problem. Neither Bush nor Kerry can come out and say that, because voters wouldn't like it.
Even though our hands are stuck, I'm sure things will go better when we kick the bejesus out of that tar baby!
Posted by: joe at October 5, 2004 01:24 PMAnti-Jewish conspiracy blather will not help anybody anywhere ever. Reasoned critique might make headway.
Second, projecting racist value judgements onto Muslims of any grouping of ethnic identities, particularly those based on Reconstruction-era anti-black propaganda, is necessarily counterproductive.
The reason Iraq is messed up is because the coalition of western nations decided to make it so. Maybe we can get them to believe they are incompetent, but these are the people who controlled the Silk Road, threatened Western China, invented calculus and algebra, and ruled a vast empire of multiple ethnicities and religions long before Europe crawled out of its muddy poop-infested cities and started to think about raising ruckuses on a worldwide scale. If Kerry can get some good nations to help, we can make it better, and send our weeny wagging junior hitlers back to their compounds in rural Texas.
The reason Israel is so prickly is the fact that it cannot trust anyone to defend it from its old or new neighbors (Yurp and Araby). the most retrograde Israeli influences flourish because they can gin up conflict, and irony doesn't begin to describe the conditions in that country today vis a vis the Palestinians.
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