October 10, 2004

Achilles Is Not a Hero

Chris Bertram writes something inexplicable:

Crooked Timber: Portraying Guevara : Lack of success and damaging facts should not necessarily be enough to deprive a hero of heroic status: Achilles was flawed, and Achilles was cruel, and Achilles failed, but we still respond to him.

As far as I'm concerned, we "respond" to Achilles--we may even pity him--but we do not admire him. None of us would wish to have the character of Achilles.

Hektor is the one we admire. Hektor is the hero of the Iliad.

And none of us would wish to have the character of Che Guevara.

Posted by DeLong at October 10, 2004 07:16 AM | TrackBack
Comments

Achilles is not a hero because of his pride and his fighting skill. He is a hero because, at the end of the Iliad, he recognizes that "honor" and pride are false values when they lead to violence and isolation. Violence doesn't solve problems but makes them worse,and makes him worse in the process. This realization is what makes him a hero.

Posted by: andy at October 10, 2004 07:51 AM

Does he? After the funeral games of Hektor the Horse Tamer come to an end, what does Achilles do? He goes back to slaughtering Trojans who are protecting their homes and their families.

Achilles may (or may not) realize that he is not a hero at the end of the Iliad, but realizing that you are not a hero does not make you a hero.

Posted by: Brad DeLong at October 10, 2004 08:20 AM

What's your problem with the character of Che Guevara?

I don't know that much about him, so this is not a challenge, just a question. I read his war memoir, whose name escapes me at the moment, and I saw the motorcycle movie last night.

Posted by: Ben at October 10, 2004 08:44 AM

Brad, I would not wish to have the character of Achilles, nor that of Guevara, Lenin, Trotsky, Robespierre, Bonaparte.... But the point of my post over at CT was not to say that I wished to have their character, but rather to say that a certain type of commentary (the Thersites/Berman type) is wholly inadequate to capture what is humanly important about these people and their projects.

Posted by: Chris Bertram at October 10, 2004 08:56 AM

"None of us would wish to have the character of Che Guevarra".

The character of the hero is difficult for the rest of us to understand. If we take Motorcycle Diaries as generally representative of a formative part of Che's character, we see that he was influenced by the people he saw on his trip, the quality of their lives and the way that modernity had worked against them. His desire to do something about that is certainly admirable.

For me, the 60's were a similar time, and the way each of us responded to the problems we saw was similarly formative. For those on the right, the thing which seemed most important was the breakdown of authority, evidenced by the disarray in the military. I recall one evening on guard duty, when of the 27 men, some were drunk and some stoned, and the rest were just miserable.

For those on the left, the problem was the abuse of authority, and many were forced into positions of leadership before they knew how to exercise it wisely or well. John Kerry tried to do the right thing, but who knows whether it was right or not, and in this he is symbolic of the choices made by most lefties.

Che was faced with a dilemma like that facing Kerry and other anti-war veterans: what is the best thing to do in the face of abuse of power. He chose badly. So did the Weather Underground. But in the case of the latter, and the Symbionese Liberation Army, it was the result of their isolation from the reasonable views of the reformist left, and from the views of the rest of the world. At least in Che's case, there seems to have been a moral choice, informed by actual people and experience. Wrong, yes, but at least not solipsistic, at least an effort to respond to the situation he saw in the faces and lives of real people.

Posted by: masaccio at October 10, 2004 09:03 AM

I should make clear that the guard duty story happened in the States.

Posted by: masaccio at October 10, 2004 09:46 AM

Pero, la victoria! Seriously, though, at what point is it permissible for the oppressed (and if Cubans under Bautista weren't oppressed, then who is?) to use violence? I'm not in favor of political violence, quite the opposite, but when the laws themselves are the means of oppression, how does one change the system without breaking the law? If the state will always respond with violence to serious attempts to remove it from power (I give you bloody Sunday, the coup in Venezuela, the war against blacks in S Africa, etc.) then at what point does violence against the state become justifiable? This is assuming that there are situations in which non-violent protest does not work; if Gandhi-style tactics will not work in a situation, then are we going to say that order is more important than justice?

Posted by: Padraig at October 10, 2004 09:58 AM

Achilles doesn't go back to killing in the Iliad. He also knew his death was coming for him if he avenged Patroklos. They may both be flawed heroes, but I can't see how Hektor is more heroic than Achilles.

Posted by: walons at October 10, 2004 10:06 AM

Calling Hektor the hero of the Iliad exhibits a degree of literary ignorance comparable to understanding a poor man's desire for a coach and six as effective demand.

Posted by: Michael McIntyre at October 10, 2004 10:09 AM

The first line of the Iliad states in plain language that Achilles is the hero of the poem. You're using a modern perspective to criticize him, but in the context of the poem and Greek culture Achilles is heroic and admirable in many ways, despite his flaws. What's more, his deeds are the inspiration for a great epic, which is a another kind of heroism.

Posted by: Nougaro at October 10, 2004 10:15 AM

If you don't think Achilles is a hero from your perspective, sure, but if you don't think he's a hero in Homer's poem, you don't get Homer's poem.

Posted by: david at October 10, 2004 10:25 AM

I think Brad's comment raises an interesting conundrum that has settled about Homer's two great heroes - and I can't view the central character of an epic poem as anything other than its hero. Both Achilles and Odysseus have come in for pretty negative press over the last 2500 years. Interestingly, for Odysseus it is more the Ulysses persona - in other words, the tradition of myths about him that were not the core of the Odyssey, such as his descent from Sisyphus. To the Romans, of course, he was a scoundrel, but Virgil still saw fit to use the Odyssey as the model for the Aeneid. In contrast, Achilles as revealed in the Iliad is the character that Brad questions.

To me the questions that this raises are about Homer's intentions versus our interpretations. Some here have insisted that Homer was unambiguously pro-Achilles, and that Brad is just imposing a modern viewpoint on the poem, but it's hard to see a skulker who allows his allies to suffer near-defeat as a wholly positive figure. In contrast, the flaws of Odysseus that Homer highlights seem more marginal, and also seem to drop away as he suffers and gains wisdom - or is that just a post-Christian perspective?

One thing I think it's important not to do is to ascribe all distaste for Achilles to simple modern distaste for gore and bloodthirstiness. The merciless slaughter of the (thoroughly deserving) suitors is never counted against Odysseus' character by moderns, but most recoil at the noble figure of Hektor dragged behind Achilles' chariot.

Perhaps we need to recognize the awe the Hellenes would have at a hero as terrible - original sense - as Achilles. Critics often describe him as a force of nature.

Posted by: JRoth at October 10, 2004 10:52 AM

Depends on what you mean by "we". I imagine that the majority of people, upon hearing the name Achilles, would think only of his heel and thus associate the name with weakness.

Posted by: Eric at October 10, 2004 10:56 AM

"And none of us would wish to have the character of Che Guevara."

Thousands of college students in thousands of college dorm rooms, silently weep...:)

Posted by: Gozer at October 10, 2004 11:02 AM

Padraig:

The problem was not the revolution, it was came after.

No doubt though that Che was more committed to his ideal than Castro, for what that it worth, so was Pol Pot.

Full Disclosure: Anti-Castro Cuban American who opposes the embargo and has never voted for a Republican.

Posted by: Armando at October 10, 2004 11:24 AM

Padraig:

The problem was not the revolution, it was came after.

No doubt though that Che was more committed to his ideal than Castro, for what that it worth, so was Pol Pot.

Full Disclosure: Anti-Castro Cuban American who opposes the embargo and has never voted for a Republican.

Posted by: Armando at October 10, 2004 11:24 AM

Padraig:

The problem was not the revolution, it was came after.

No doubt though that Che was more committed to his ideal than Castro, for what that it worth, so was Pol Pot.

Full Disclosure: Anti-Castro Cuban American who opposes the embargo and has never voted for a Republican.

Posted by: Armando at October 10, 2004 11:25 AM

"what is the best thing to do in the face of abuse of power. He chose badly."

At the risk of injecting yet more literature into the discussion, Salman Rushdie in the Satanic Verses asks two questions of his hero/villain (in the guise of Muhammad the prophet). The first one: What kind of an idea are you -- The kind that adapts and finds a niche or the kind that doesn't compromise and in 99 out 100 cases fails, but in the 100th case changes the world? Che chose the latter, and in that regard he can rightfully claim hero status. He only chose badly when answering the second question: What will you if you win?

Posted by: ogmb at October 10, 2004 11:49 AM

There was a lot of room to criticize the recent movie Troy, but I thought that the ambiguous but riveting figure of Achilles in that movie was really, really interesting. I liked Hector better too, but Achilles was great...if not good.

Posted by: sm at October 10, 2004 12:25 PM

"Calling Hektor the hero of the Iliad exhibits a degree of literary ignorance..."

Oh, bull. I've translated portions of the Iliad, if that has any authority, and I think De Long's assertion is quite credible *in context*.

Without a doubt, Achilles is a hero in the Homeric sense. He was a hero to the Greeks. He was the hero of the poem. But "hero" to the Greeks has as much a different meaning from its contemporary English cognate as "tragedy" and "comedy" do. That is, relatively distant.

Do people call Jesus Christ a "hero"? Is Christ the "hero" of the NT? We may aspire to be Christlike, and we may be able to aspire to such because Christ was in a sense human; but Christ was also divine and makes him a completely inappropriate contemporary "hero" and that's why no one refers to Christ as "hero".

Okay, fine, maybe also because "hero" refers usually to a person of action.

But the point is that Achilles is truly heroic in the Greek sense precisely because of his partial divinity: he is *greater*, inherently, than the rest of us. Greater in his rage, his pride, his valor, his vanity, his agility.

Hector, and Odysses in his own way, are heroes in the modern sense because they are fully human but greatly admirable. They are people we can aspire to be.

To say that this modern idea of "hero" is anachronistic to a discussion of the Iliad is simply false because, in fact, the Greeks and obviously Homer felt about Hector and Odysses pretty much the same as we feel about them today. They were heroes, in the modern sense, to the Greeks.

Posted by: Keith M Ellis at October 10, 2004 12:29 PM

The central theme of the Iliad is neither the heroism of Achilles or Hector, but rather the "menin," the rage mentioned in the first line of that poem.

This rage is the rage of mortality - the certainty of death and the striving to overcome death through glory.

As Achilles tells Odysses in the Odyssey, no life - however glorious - compensates for death. It would be better to be a living"pthete," (a condition lower than a slave), than the greatest of all the dead.

The Illiad moves us because we all have what Jung calls the shadow - our dark side. The confession of sin and the love of enemies are the Christian ways of coming to grips with this dark side, which we all have. Among other things, this means acknowleging that there is, indeed, a bit of Achilles and of Che inside all of us.

Acknowleging this is part of our becoming more humae.

Posted by: Anaxagorois at October 10, 2004 01:03 PM

Keith reveals the method. Study Greek art and literature and create a taxonomy of "heroes" and leading characters. I suspect if you do that Odysseus and Hector are the exceptions, not the rule, and we would find most of the leading figures of Greek mythology unattractive. As did that proto-totalitarian Plato.

Only when you see Achilles as a "role-model" for the Greeks does that crazed horror story by Thucydides become any where near comprehensible.

Posted by: bob mcmanus at October 10, 2004 01:13 PM

very true. Seeing Guevara's face/logo all the time is clearly more than sufficient ;).

Posted by: Tobias at October 10, 2004 01:28 PM

Every man has a price. We all sellout for the right price. Some people sell their ideas for a few more votes, some of us sell our disagreaments with our bosses to keep our jobs. In one way or other, every person sets a price to accept injustice. Ernesto Guevara's price was the highest: he accepted paying only with his life to fight what he thought was un unjust world.
Brad, if you don't admire that, there's little that you can admire and I would really care to know.

Posted by: Palito at October 10, 2004 01:51 PM

Every man has a price. We all sellout for the right price. Some people sell their ideas for a few more votes, some of us sell our disagreaments with our bosses to keep our jobs. In one way or other, every person sets a price to accept injustice. Ernesto Guevara's price was the highest: he accepted paying only with his life to fight what he thought was un unjust world.
Brad, if you don't admire that, there's little that you can admire and I would really care to know.

Posted by: Palito at October 10, 2004 01:56 PM

"Brad, if you don't admire that, there's little that you can admire and I would really care to know."

That is pretty unfair. Ghandi, ML King Jr, Schweitzer there are plenty of less-flawed self sacrificers to admire than Guevara. I maybe have less trouble than some in admiring ancient Greece, the Italian Renaissance, even Rome, but I recognize it as a guilty pleasure or a step away from moral clarity. Guevara may just be too close and too relevant.

Posted by: bob mcmanus at October 10, 2004 02:07 PM

"what is the best thing to do in the face of abuse of power. He chose badly."

Y'know, I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that. Is Cuba a dictatorship, dim grey and oppressive? Yup. Will it be a good day when it achieves democracy instead? Yup. But when I look at the various right wing dictatorships of the Americas and Caribbean that were *not* overthrown, and all their mountains of dead and tortured, the desperate poverty, lack of medical care and food... I'm not particularly convinced they'd have been better off with no Cuban Revolution all the same.

Posted by: tavella at October 10, 2004 02:36 PM

masaccio: That was a really interesting point. I don't have anything meaningful to say in response, but I wanted you to know that it gave me food for thought.

Posted by: Walt Pohl at October 10, 2004 04:00 PM

I assure you, there are still plenty of people who would wish to have the character of Che Guevara, or even that of Achilles. Not everybody is a neocon or a neoliberal yet.

Posted by: rps at October 10, 2004 07:17 PM

BDL wd. be better off not commenting on those who have attempted to be historical alternatives, on the left, to capitalism. Remember DeLong's screed on Paul Sweezy's death? It's the sort of kneejerk anticommunism that doesn't illuminate the subject at all. It's sophomoric for an alleged professor of economics to be behaving like a spoiled brat.

Posted by: Dick Fitzgerald at October 10, 2004 08:54 PM

BDL wd. be better off not commenting on those who have attempted to be historical alternatives, on the left, to capitalism. Remember DeLong's screed on Paul Sweezy's death? It's the sort of kneejerk anticommunism that doesn't illuminate the subject at all. It's sophomoric for an alleged professor of economics to be behaving like a spoiled brat.

Posted by: Dick Fitzgerald at October 10, 2004 08:56 PM

BDL should stay off the subject of the historical left. Remember his screed on Paul Sweezy's death? It's the sort of kneejerk anticommunism that doesn't illuminate the subject, and is frankly antiintellectual.

Posted by: Dick Fitzgerald at October 10, 2004 09:01 PM

Shall we be redeemed by good deeds? Or by faith alone? The question of a man's worth, posed in any way, is unanswerable. As for Achilles, men may not want him to be President, but many men would want to be him, despite his sad fate. To be closer to God, to be God-like, to have powers others do not have...heady stuff indeed.

Posted by: chickensoup at October 10, 2004 09:52 PM

Hector is admired by Homer, and by intelligent Greeks, as a contast to Achilles. He is the reluctant warrior who fights, not for glory and vengence, but for home and family. By dragging Hector's body and refusing to bury him, Achilles violates the norms of decency for the sake of vengence
At the end of the Iliad, though, after the funeral games, Achilles meets with Priam, the father of Hector, and says that honor(glory) is empty and violence(vengence) is futile because, even if the fame your honor brings you is immortal, in the end, you are going to die anyway and it all turns to dust (read Achilles speech from the dead in the Odyssey). He gives up his vengence and returns Hector's body to his father and lets him depart in peace.
Achilles first blames Agamemnon then the gods for his troubles but finally realizes that it his own arrogance in the quest for honor that has caused the destruction occuring around him.
A tragic hero is an asshole who finally realizes he's an asshole and tries to make amends. Even if it means dying to do so.

Posted by: andy at October 11, 2004 12:29 PM

bob mcmanus raises a very interesting point about the personal merits (or absence thereof) of most Greek heroes. Jason comes immediately to mind, but the House of Atreus certainly had little to recommend it either. What was it about the Greeks that made them admire - study? sing about? - such flawed or even evil characters?

One thought (kind of obvious, I suppose) is that these are all parables, and that these paragons are held up as warnings. We all know about the ultimate Greek sin, hubris, and it's clear that, for many of these flawed heroes, hubris is at the bottom of their evil ends. Perhaps the real difference in Greek mindset is not that they admired bloodthirsty jerks (although they did) but that they made the protagonist the one with the big flaw. John Wayne was always perfect, but to the Greeks, the spaghetti Western Eastwood would have been the more likely choice, because he was more illustrative. By putting him at the center of the narrative, the audience identifies with him; by spotlighting his flaws (fatal or tragic or both), the audience is forced to come to terms with their own flaws. In contrast, John Wayne movies merely reinforce the audience's self-satisfaction - we're all great, just like the Duke.

There's also a separate thought about heroes like Oedipus, who were truly admirable men in every way, yet had been targeted by the Fates for an awful end anyway. I guess that sort of story plays at the fundamentally fatalistic view of the Greeks?

Posted by: JRoth at October 11, 2004 02:29 PM

"if Gandhi-style tactics will not work in a situation, then are we going to say that order is more important than justice? "

In how many situations can we really say Gandhi style tactices have been diligently and carefully applied? I can only think of three: India, The American South, and South Africa. It would be nice to see what happened if people stopped naysaying and hypothesizing about "what if this doesn't work," and actually try it out for more than just a bit.

Posted by: Saheli at October 11, 2004 04:29 PM

I'm with Keith and andy. Homer (or the guy who was just like Homer and had the same name but was a different fellow) composed the Iliad sometime around the 800's with the (possibly) vague memory of the collapse of the Mykenean era. That is he was talking about the Age of Heroes but also the 'Bronze men' who quarreled too much. His view is not neccessarily the view of later Greek writers.

Hector is plainly portrayed as a hero, whom the gods have conspired to destroy, just as they capriciously conspire to destroy Troy. Achilles is a hero, but the one destroyed by his own flaws.

You could, depending on your point of view, defend any of the Greeks OR any of the Trojans as heroes... except for Paris, who is plainly a little asshole.

And now that I've written that, it occurs to me that maybe you've pitched your argument wrong, and should maybe posit Che as Paris and neither Achilles or Hector.


ash
['Just throwing in, nothing to see here.']

Posted by: ash at October 11, 2004 04:56 PM

Hector and Achilles are meant to offer contrasting views of the heroic, no? Hector does what he does because he must. No one but Hector can defend Ilium. Achilles does what he does because he has been given a choice: death in glorious combat, after slaughtering many foemen, or death at home. (One can argue over whether Achilles was ultimately fated to die in combat, but that's just part of the fun in the Iliad.) Achilles is the wrecker of cities, Hector the breaker of horses. That contrast is from the text, not the gloss we put on the text from our modern point of view.

Which is why calling Hector the hero, or at least one of the heroes, of the Iliad is a reasonable thing to do. Achilles certainly got lots of attention through the ages. "Winners" often do. Societies which have since read the Iliad often had martial traditions to uphold, traditions that make Achilles a valuable literary role model. Seeing how Homer treats Hector, though, makes quite clear that there is another, deeper model for heroism than merely being able to deliver victory in battle. Achilles sulks far from home. Hector plays with his child, offers comfort to his wife, defends his family and city. Achilles is conventional. Hector is a new idea in literature.

The first line of the Iliad seems to be the first sign of things to come. "Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans." Not the Trojans, the Achaeans. A conventional war poem would note that Achilles brought ills upon the Trojans. There is it, right up front. There is not point at which Hector brings ills upon his own people. The first line, rather than declaring Achilles the hero of the poem, points out the cost of his vanity. It is not a virtue of heroism to bring ills on one's own.

If we insist on falling back on formal definitions of "hero" then we miss a good bit of the tension between the two models we are offered in the Iliad.

Oops. Hello David. Hello Andy. Ya, what they said.

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