Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal: A Weblog

Iliad:Aeneid::Starship Troopers:Forever War

Presuming you mean the Troopers book, and not the movie.

Starship Troopers & Forever War were two different concepts by different authors.

Starship Troopers & Forever War were two different concepts by different authors.

Well, different but very similar. Which is what I said.

Now that I think about it, it should be:

Odyssey:Aeneid::Starship Troopers:Forever War

False. Illiad : odyssey :: Starship Troopers(movie) : Star Trek Voyager

False. Illiad : odyssey :: Starship Troopers(movie) : Star Trek Voyager

False. Illiad : odyssey :: Starship Troopers(movie) : Star Trek Voyager

False. Illiad : odyssey :: Starship Troopers(movie) : Star Trek Voyager

Joe Haldeman rocks. Wouldn't one of his stories make a great movie for the moment right about now?

False. Illiad : odyssey :: Starship Troopers(movie) : Star Trek Voyager

Illiad:Odyssey::Platoon:Coming Home

Iliad:Odyssey::Fox in Socks::And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street

False.

Iliad : Odyssey :: Fox in Socks : And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street.

No, because Iliad is about the futility of war - the rage of Achilles which brought so much suffering to the Achaeans, etc - and doesn't bring the war itself to any clear conclusion; and Odyssey is actually a much more morally straightforward story in which the good guys are Good (if occasionally argumentative or even mutinous) and the bad guys are Bad and often Monsters as well.

Iliad: Odyssey:: Platoon: The Green Berets.
Iliad: Odyssey:: Consider Phlebas: Against A Dark Background.
Iliad: Odyssey::

> No, because Iliad is about the futility of war

That may be a modern reinterpretation.

A good point, Achilles. Perhaps I should not have used the word "futility" - I suppose you could argue that the ancient Greeks might have seen a war as worthwhile if it gave rise to sufficient virtue, heroism etc. regardless of whether it reached its original objectives.
But note that the "rage of Achilles" thing is taken from the opening of the Iliad. And I stand by my position that the "enemy" in the Iliad is portrayed much more sympathetically than any of the enemies in the Odyssey, who tend to be monsters who must be killed.

Nice one. I vote false. The Odyssey is a journey home after a war. Forever War is about fighting the war, like the Illiad. The "journey home" is a tiny part at the end.

A pedantic response, not nearly as creative as some above.

No. same author :: different author. war : journey home :: war : war (with periodic "you can't go home again" interludes). Positive attitude toward war :: positive : negative. human enemies : monsters :: monsters : monsters. Too many differences.

That said, the problem with analogies is that just about anything can be stretched to fit. Usually, the tests on analogies are multiple guess; what are the other choices?

Don Quixote: Haldeman has been pretty clear on a number of occasions that he wrote "The Forever War" as, in part, a direct response to and critique of "Starship Troopers", so it's not an entirely unfair comparison.

My first thought was that it was false, based on simply looking at the respective storylines, but after thinking a while I believe it's true. Both the Iliad and Starship Troopers were about virtue and the warrior/soldier ideal. The Odyssey and Forever War involved men caught up in long, complex struggles orchestrated by the Gods/state. Or maybe I'm reaching.

No. same author :: different author. war : journey home :: war : war (with periodic "you can't go home again" interludes). Positive attitude toward war :: positive : negative. human enemies : monsters :: monsters : monsters. Too many differences.

That said, the problem with analogies is that just about anything can be stretched to fit. Usually, the tests on analogies are multiple guess; what are the other choices?

Iliad:Odyssey::Gallipoli:Return of Martin Guerre

I like Dr. Limerick's comment, as much as I think that its not historically accurate - different time periods, what not.

After thinking about it a while, I think this is more accurate:

Illiad: Odyssey is to Starship Troopers:The Cat who Walks through walls

Same author: check
Plot/Themes: In book 1, warriors (not soliders) who exemplify warrior spirit/ethos; Book 2 single warrior who has left off solidering to return to metaphorical home and finds that he must reconcile a warlike universe in which he's neither solider or citizen; climatic final battle against enemies who threaten that home/peace he has foughts for
Character in book 2 - wily war hero; unlikely warrior - not in the mode of the time as a warrior

I've always like Richard Ames, and while he's not a perfect analogue of Odysseus, I think he fits Heinlein's theme of the citizen solider; I also think he passed through many adventures, some of which he cannot be proud of, and survives on his wits. Gwen as Penelope/Circe/Athena fits nicely with the themes where all women are Gwen and yet not all men are Richard.

What did Heinlein mean by it? Richard stands in contrast to Lazarus (Achilles or Agenemenon?) as Odysseus contrasts will all other greeks. Also, both men leave the battle and become, in part, bards (perhaps I've read too much Joyce) - heroes and storytellers. Also, Heinlein offers in Richard an alternative to the lifestyle of his multiverse - a place of great dangers, godlike enemies, and constant betrayal where one does not need to be a solider all the time in order to survive and be happy. Richard like Oddyseus is the outsider (in thought and temperment) to Lazarus' helots, and a foil to him as Oddyseus was to so many Greeks.

Hmm, while Heinlein is as great a writer as the immortal greek bard. (Sing in me, Muse), but he's pretty good.

devgirl
likes a bit of lit review on a Friday

Iraq:Afghanistan::America Inc(TM):Forever War®

[DISCLAIMER: This comparison contains forward-looking statements and has not been approved by the SEC. Investor analogies may vary. America Inc and Forever War are registered trademarks of Republican National Committee, NeoCon Division.]

No. They units are completely different.

Doctor Memory wrote: >>> Don Quixote: Haldeman has been pretty clear on a number of occasions that he wrote "The Forever War" as, in part, a direct response to and critique of "Starship Troopers", so it's not an entirely unfair comparison. <<<

Can you recall where you saw this? I've never seen Haldeman say this and often seen him say the opposite. I've also never seen any hard basis for the related rumor about supposed animosity between Heinlein and Haldeman.

I posted to USENET on this topic in 2001:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=tSV56.206326%24DG3.4876259%40news2.giganews.com

Unfortunately the links I cited are dead.

Some other references:

http://www.scifi.com/transcripts/1998/JoeHaldeman.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers

Hang on, is it CW again that the Homer who wrote the Iliad is the same person who wrote the Odyssey? That's one literary 'controversy' I don't pay much attention to.

The Iliad celebrates Greek victory in war; the Odyssey reveals the price some (Odysses and some spearchuckers) pay for having fought that war.

What _The Forever War_ lacks in the parallel--working from memory, and it's been a while, but I'm fairly certain I'm correct--is a Penelope.

I'm voting true.

True - Starship Troopers (the book): the franchise to vote shall only be extended to those who have satisfactorally completed volunteer (military) service to the country [paraphrased]. An implied content to the Illiad, bare-faced in just about everything Heinlein wrote... and yes, just about everything about Star Trek.

"To place the good of the many before the good of the few, or the one."

Leaving haldeman aside, this comment at Matt Yglesias's site showed me the baleful shadow of ST afresh:

"The ground war in Iraq has caused literally thousands of pointless Western casualties. We should've just carpet bombed Iraq until there was nothing left but smoldering ashes, Zionist settlers, and Halliburton. 25 million Iraqnids aren't worth the life of 1 American patriot, let alone 1000."

It's not just the use of "iraqnids", it's the repetition (in twisted form) of the view, propounded by one of the novel's teachers of history and moral philosophy (a job only open to veterans) that a single life is worth a war of total destruction.

Leaving haldeman aside, this comment at Matt Yglesias's site showed me the baleful shadow of Starship Troopers afresh:

"The ground war in Iraq has caused literally thousands of pointless Western casualties. We should've just carpet bombed Iraq until there was nothing left but smoldering ashes, Zionist settlers, and Halliburton. 25 million Iraqnids aren't worth the life of 1 American patriot, let alone 1000."

It's not just the use of "iraqnids", it's the repetition (in twisted form) of the view, propounded by one of the novel's teachers of history and moral philosophy (a job only open to veterans) that a single life is worth a war of total destruction.

False.

Iliad:Odyssey::Starship Troopers:Friday

Some analogies are fatuous anyway. As are some books, I'm looking at you Forever War. (And you stranger in a strange land.)

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Captain Button, I wish I could find the reference, but I distinctly recall reading a Haldeman anecdote about encountering Heinlein at the party just after winning the Hugo for Forever War. He said he was a bit embarrassed, because, in his own words, Forever War was a criticism or repudiation of nearly everything in Starship Troopers. However, Heinlein crossed to him and congratulated him warmly on his Hugo. Haldeman cited it as an example of the generosity and good nature of the Dean of SF, and this is amply backed up by many anecdotes from other authors (though I have also read he could be a terror when crossed or contradicted in public).
Now, Haldeman never says he wrote FW in a fit of pique after reading ST, but it seems very clear that he reaches far different conclusions than Heinlein does about the common themes of duty and sacrifice. Hope that helps a bit (even though it’s totally unsourced, now that I think about it. But I _like_ discussing Haldeman and Hienlein, darn it!

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