Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)

Of course, Dubya is carefully avoiding the real point those questioning his military record are trying to make. Service in the Guard is perfectly honorable -- having others pull strings to get you into the Guard, and then not finishing out your term, is not.

As I just posted at Billmon's, someone whose email address I will be happy to share has just blessed my inbox with the following response to my own unrelenting diatribes on the pointy-headed pipsqueak's alleged service to his country:

"Hey Jackoff,

Can I assume you were this indignant regarding the Vietnam activities of Clinton, a REAL draft-dodger? Did you support Bush Sr and Dole, both war heroes????"

We are not denigrating the guard, we are denigrating those who refused to serve their whole term in the guard. How the hell did this clown get an honorable discharge. He is a disgrace to the guard, a disgrace to the military, and a disgrace to the nation.

Around 1968-70 a friend of mine joined "the Guards". He said that he was told in basic training that "N.G." stands for "No Good and Not Going". That didn't bother my friends, who was perfectly happy with the "Not Going" part. My Vietnam-era high school class had about 60-70% military participation, and those with Guard service were generally regarded as people who had found an honorable way to stay out of the war.

maybe i'm too young to know this, but did the guard change since the draft was eliminated? did guardsmen go to vietnam? engage in overseas combat duty at all? if so, in any great number, like now?

wasn't rotc a frequent target of campus anti-war protests? anybody know why?

Re: Guard and Reserves in Vietnam: it depended on the unit, IIRC. Some WE'RE ordered into combat; however, Bush's particular unit in Texas was apparently known as the "Champagne Brigade," and was NOT going to be called up. I believe Lloyd Bentsen's son, John Tower's son, and a number of football players from the Dallas Cowboys and/or Houston Oilers were attached to the unit.

Bush's jet was being phased out, and wasn't suitable for the conditions in Vietnam. He additionally signed a form indicating that he WOULD NOT accept an overseas deployment. I think, given the circumstances, it's clear that Bush was given a Quayle-pass based on his name--and then he skipped out anyway by serving at his convenience.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that other NG and Reserve units served--probably infantry units.

The President also said: "I served -- I flew fighters and enjoyed it, and provided a service to our country."

Maybe Secretary Powell will explain that not everyone enjoyed being in the military during those years. Maybe he can explain what service to the country really meant back then. And what it really means to be serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I've been beating my head against the wall on this skeleton in Bush's closet for the past year, especially in the last couple of weeks, in my alma mater's message board forum. I'll tell you, there are a lot of people out there who matter a lot more than the idiots on that board, who just don't care what the facts are here. They're too emotional about it, especially the Vietnam Vets. Let me tell you, they're equating Kerry with Hanoi Jane Fonda. But as I say to them in the forum, we're going to pound him with it this election, because after leading those boys into a war for oil and profit, he deserves it. Go Kerry.

Bush will treat him like somebody to be used and discarded. IMHO, Powell has forfeited any right to be treated better.

Powell accepted a post under Bush. He continued on long after it has become clear that his only purpose is to be used and discarded. If he wants better treatment and respect, he'll have to earn it.

This one is pretty easy. The president will just have to ask the good general whether or not Michael should keep his job.

LOL, Bruce. And the Powell family members probably sit on a number of corporate boards (=get paid for showing up and being wined and dined).

It'd be oh-so-bad if they lost those pay-offs ^H^H^H^H jobs.

Unfortunately, ardent Bush partisans have always "known" that Powell is actually a wimpy, crypto-liberal, French-loving, UN-sucker-up-to, lame-ass near-traitor. So this quote, alas, won't win any rhetorical points with the True Believers. They'll just start another round-robin on how Powell should be fired, and how Democrats are all military-hating traitors.

Bush's "I flew fighters" comment sounded eerily reminiscent of Rain Man's "I'm a very good driver."

Bush also said that he left the TANG early to enter Harvard Business School and "worked it out with the military." I wonder if any current Guardsmen, who have actually seen combat and have had extended tours, would be interested in "working it out with the military"?

The issue of Bush's service record merits attention because he continues to present himself to the media as a valiant "war President."

George W. Bush going AWOL during the Vietnam War brings into focus the fact that he was only too cavalier to send American citizens unnecessarily into harm's way in Iraq, but was himself less than cavalier about serving his country himself.

As others have pointed out in this forum, there are any number of good reasons for not wanting to serve in the military these days. Our leaders are only too willing to play politics with the lives of soldiers, arguing that defending "democracy" requires us to kick ass on small nations rather than face the difficulty of promoting peaceful international solutions to the problems caused by injustice. Indeed, war seldom has motives that have anything to do with democracy.

Those who served in Vietnam during the Vietnam War deserve the highest respect from our nation. Nevertheless, we need to be clear that criticism of Bush's service record need not mean that Vietnam was a good war, nor that we are gung-ho for any type of military action.

Bush may have been opposed to the Vietnam War, but he has never (to my knowledge) made such a declaration. Given the circumstances of the times, using his father's political connections to get a sweet appointment to the Texas Guard might be understandable (as was understandable Clinton's use of the academic outlet to shield himself from service), but to later defend that term of military service as honorable and unassailable is, to say the least, dishonest.

Bush, like the generation before him that sent young men to die in Vietnam, continues the tradition of completing a political and economic agenda by sending citizens to their graves for questionable causes.

That's why we need someone as President who has lived to understand and respect the enormous sacrifice that soldiers make, that veterans have made, and that others not so lucky to be called veterans have made.

This President, despite photo ops on carriers, is not that person.

What will Bush do the next time he meets Powell? Well, unless Rove or Cheney or Rumsfeld inform Dubya, he'll greet Powell as he usually does. In fact on this issue, does Bush start reading the newspapers himself to confirm his own standings in the polls or does he still wait for Cheney et al? "Wasn't I just great with that feller Russert?"

I'd like to see former President Clinton and former Vice-President Gore's Military and/or National Guard payroll records. Oh, they don't have any, what a shame? My understanding is they were both able bodied citizens that had opportunity to serve but chose not to. Why? If they or President Bush were attempting to dodge service in Vietnam, then President Bush's record is more heroic and valiant than our previous Commander-in-Chief and VP! In the least, President Bush served in the National Guard, and that organization discharged him honorably for the service he performed.

In regard to war-time experience, let's reflect on Somalia and former Yugoslavia and compare that with Afghanistan and Iraq? All decisions to send troops that resulted in loss of life.

In John Kerry's statements made to Congress in 1972, I would like to know who he was referring to that killed innocent people and destroyed villages in Vietnam. Did he know any of them by name? Where any of them convicted of war crimes? Did one man's public statements to the nation lead to the disgrace that millions of Vietnam vets had to live through when they returned home?

Please, enlightned us with your "truths."

If all it takes to verify the existence of an issue is a small batch of records, Enron would still be blowing and going.

As a CPA and former Air Force Audit Manager, the only thing paystubs and tax records show is that he was PAID. The only way it can be proven that he actually attended is via unit attendance rosters, unit hierarchy records including additional duty rigs, photographs, drug and medical testing including flight physicals (all pilots need them), most units have good documentation including unit photos, find those asigned to the unit at the same time and interview them under oath.

It is critical one way or another to validate this. And just in case anyone wonders, I actually voted for Bush.

Tonya,

John Kerry has a record as a prosecutor. His major accomplishments in the Senate have not been legislative, but investigational. He's held hearings, conducted inquiries, and chaired exploratory commissions. If anybody could find out the truth about the baby-raping, virgin-stabbing, granny-burning, war criminals that were described -- in 1971, to Congress, by the VietNam veterans Against the War -- it would have been John F Kerry.

He didn't. So, such war criminals don't exist.
They never did exist.

(This is the same sort of investigation Kerry carried out regarding POWs/MIAs -- a major stumbling block to renormalization with VietNam for decades after the war ended. Kerry didn't find them. So, they never did exist. Renormalization could procede. And did.)

So, the Veterans Against the War were mistaken, fools, or lying. Simple as that.

"Colin Powell denigrated service in the Vietnam-era National Guard. What is George W. Bush going to do the next time he meets Colin Powell?"

When did Colin Powell "denigrate service in the Vietnam-era National Guard"?

Let's see what John McCain says. In my opinion, John McCain's service in Vietnam trumps just about anyone's. Except perhaps those who lost limbs. Or died.

"SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): That issue came up in the last election cycle. I think they were responded to. If this turns into a nasty campaign, clearly they have to respond to it. But, look, I believe that service in the National Guard is honorable service. There are thousands and thousands of National Guardsmen and women who are in Iraq as we speak, and so to somehow denigrate service in the National Guard is totally inappropriate, and I think there would be a backlash to it if they pursued that."

http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=3872

So if Colin Powell denigrated service in the Vietnam-era National Guard, what will Colin Powell say the next time he meets John McCain?

Shem writes, "Of course, Dubya is carefully avoiding the real point those questioning his military record are trying to make. Service in the Guard is perfectly honorable -- having others pull strings to get you into the Guard, and then not finishing out your term, is not."

Don't you think it's remarkable and ironic that virtually all of the people who are making a big deal about Bush's Vietnam service record twice voted for Bill Clinton (who promised to join the ROTC in order to get a deferment, and then reneged on that promise)?

If these people apparently have no problem with what Bill Clinton did, why do they have such a problem with what G.W. Bush did? Do you suppose it could be because Bill Clinton is a Democrat, and G.W. Bush is a Republican?

Mark Bahner (Libertarian...who--thank God--was only 16 when the Vietnam Police Action ended)

"maybe i'm too young to know this, but did the guard change since the draft was eliminated? did guardsmen go to vietnam? engage in overseas combat duty at all? if so, in any great number, like now?"

http://www.ngb.army.mil/about/

From that website:

"During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam. Over 75,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called upon to help bring a swift end to Desert Storm in 1991."

So the answers appear to be yes, Air Guardsmen served in Vietnam. However, it appears that a far greater percentage of Guardsmen are called to combat nowadays (i.e., Desert Storm I) than back in Vietnam.

"wasn't rotc a frequent target of campus anti-war protests? anybody know why?"

As Eric Cartman would say, "@3$% hippies!" ("I hate hippies!")

Mark Bahner (General H.H. Arnold High School, Wiesbaden, Germany)

"I'd like to see former President Clinton and former Vice-President Gore's Military and/or National Guard payroll records. Oh, they don't have any, what a shame? My understanding is they were both able bodied citizens that had opportunity to serve but chose not to."

Al Gore served in the military. He was in Vietnam. My understanding is that he once was in a place where there had been some fighting a little while earlier.

As far as I'm concerned, he served honorably.

Bill Clinton did not serve.

re; Bush's Guard service.
I am a Air National Guard Vet of 12yrs. During that time I found myself in Korea, Hondurus, Desert Storm, etc. The state missions (Calif. Guard) was everything from earthquake, fires,floods to Rodney King and O.J. verdicts. The Guard now is very military and professional and is open to all able bodied to enlist. There was a time that has merit over Bush vs Kerry on service. The Guard & reserves at time in Question was used for a Haven for the rich and famous. There were only so many openings in the reserves which made it tough to get in during a time the country was drafting into full service.
It is no discredit to my service nor the guard and reserves now for the celebity and rich exclusiveness no longer exists. And the reliance on the Guard and reserves have become monsterous since down right sizing the active duty military. If Bush in fact got excused from duty (for any reason) during a war time situation from the Guard then it shows special treatment. Also, his own pride and dignity to serve fully in what ever military capacity is deminished when he only had to show up a wkend per month & couple wks per year. Little Bush is not his father. I served in Storm with Dad Bush and was proud and confident in doing duty under him and his appointed generals. I do thank all the Veitnam vets for aggressively ensuring I was not treated poorly returning and being supported while there. Storm was not 'Nam. Bless those vets for my return could have been ugly. I think they made the difference. This issue may not sway voting one way or the other. Clinton with his lack of military service took charge after Dad Bush and Desert Storm. You should not have to be a dead hero to run for President. Finally, Would like to ask, Does one that was shot twice with two purple hearts out weigh one who was shot once with one purple heart? Is a leg amputee vet more of a hero than a arm amputee vet?? Look, get bush to answer where and what if you must, and move on.
It bothers me more that Bush and Co. use Clinton as excuse for No WMD and what Clinton said with his intel reports. How does Bush's People hide behind someone before them for their own actions? And since I was in the mid east myself I have to ask, Does Anyone truely believe that The Islamic Iraqi people will be able to live by a diluted version of the U.S. Constitution. Case in point, Lets just start with " FREEDOM OF RELIGION " ???? IN A DOMINATED lSLAMIC COUNTRY ? That will go to long term stability in the region like the Jewish faith and Islam. In my humble opinion, mind you>>>>>>>>> Robt. E.

He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither.

Just a quick comment in reference to the following quote by Pouncer:

"(This is the same sort of investigation Kerry carried out regarding POWs/MIAs -- a major stumbling block to renormalization with VietNam for decades after the war ended. Kerry didn't find them. So, they never did exist. Renormalization could procede. And did.)"

Yes, renormalization did occur, 3 months ahead of schedule, after Bill Clinton looked into the faces of the families of the missing and told them it wouldn't until this issue was resolved. As for not finding any, and they don't exist, the following article, written by Stanley Schanberg, who some of you may recognize from the movie "The Killing Fields", is dead on accurate. Mr. Schanberg is a Pulitzer prize winning journalist, not known for having right wing tendencies. This article was published in the Village Voice, also not known for right wing tendencies. Mr. Schanberg states it better than I possibly can.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0408/schanberg.php

I am not very happy about the situation in Iraq, and it breaks my heart everyday when I see that more soldiers have died. I belong to a local veterans' advocacy group. Many of our members go to the funeral home for every local soldier who has been killed. So, don't think I'm overjoyed with GW. However, anyone who thinks that John Kerry is somehow more honorable than George W. is deluding themselves. Within weeks of the burial of the POW issue as a result of these hearings, Hanoi awarded a large contract to Colliers Int'l, at that time headed by Stuart Forbes, John Kerry's cousin. Coincidence, an awfully big one if you ask me. Is selling out your brothers in arms more or less honorable than manipulating the details of your military service, and pulling strings to end up in a comfy situation?

What is sad, is that neither party has a better candidate to offer.

I would just like to say one thing and that is this. The President of this country is a good man who shoots straihgt from the hip. He has an allstar team in the office. I support my president, I would die for my president. I say this because I honestly feel that the true jihad is coming. This time the true lord will strike down the enemy that enemy will be visable.

I would just like to say one thing and that is this. The President of this country is a good man who shoots straihgt from the hip. He has an allstar team in the office. I support my president, I would die for my president. I say this because I honestly feel that the true jihad is coming. This time the true lord will strike down the enemy that enemy will be visable.

I would just like to say one thing and that is this. The President of this country is a good man who shoots straihgt from the hip. He has an allstar team in the office. I support my president, I would die for my president. I say this because I honestly feel that the true jihad is coming. This time the true lord will strike down the enemy that enemy will be visable.

Gratitude is born in hearts that take time to count up past mercies.

You are free and that is why you are lost.

Reality is not affected by our apprehension of it.

It is wise to apply the oil of refined politeness to the mechanisms of friendship.

What else can i say after all this ?!