February 22, 2004

The Russian Front

Most Americans know remarkably little about World War II's Russian front. Perhaps they know that Sargent Hans Schultz really did not want to be transferred there. But little more.

Gary Farber tracks how the awful reality of the eastern front is now getting at least a little bit of press:

Amygdala: Not entirely news, in the sense that students of the history are aware of this stuff, but it's true that it certainly hasn't made its way to popular awareness.

From evidence released from Soviet archives since the mid-1980's, scholars have learned, for example, that Soviet deaths numbered nearly 50 million, two and half times the original estimate; that the Red Army raped two million German women during their occupation to wreak revenge; and that an astonishing 40 percent of Soviet wartime battles were for decades lost to history.

In the last few years, academics have lamented that access to Russian archives has tightened considerably. Surprisingly, though, specialists in the field say that what may turn out to be a bigger problem is the dearth of Russian military historians in the West who can take advantage of the documentary material already available, coupled with the lack of money in the former Soviet Union to support those academics prepared to dive into the papers. So far, it's a "missed historiographical opportunity," said Col. David M. Glantz, now retired, the former director of the United States Army's Foreign Military Studies Office, who has written or edited more than 60 books on the history of the Soviet military in the Second World War. The extraordinarily prolific Colonel Glantz said he would need "three lifetimes" to mine the documents that have already been released.

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According to the conventional view, based largely on the often-self-serving accounts of German generals, the Wehrmacht was the most operationally advanced military in the war, and Soviet tactics and performance were leaden and unimaginative in comparison; the Red Army ultimately prevailed not because it was skillful, but because it was so large.

By incorporating Colonel Glantz's findings, however, Mr. Murray of Ohio State and his co-author, Allan R. Millett, conclude in "A War to Be Won" (Harvard, 2000), their general history of the Second World War, that the Soviets' brilliant use of encirclement and what they called "deep battle" — extremely rapid, far-reaching advances behind the enemy's front lines — constituted the most innovative and devastating display of "operational art" in World War II. Soviet operations from the summer of 1944 to the winter of 1945, they conclude, were far superior to those of the German Army at its best.

Speaking from his house in Carlisle, Pa., near the United States Army War College, Colonel Glantz marveled that close to one-half of wartime Soviet operations — including major battles involving hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers — are simply "missing from history," either neglected or covered up.

For example, in November and December of 1942 the celebrated Soviet Field Marshal G. K. Zhukov orchestrated a gigantic offensive ("Operation Mars") involving seven Soviet armies with 83 divisions, 817,000 men and 2,352 tanks. The failed operation cost the Red Army nearly 350,000 dead, missing and wounded men, and 1,700 tanks, yet it was methodically concealed in Soviet historiography, in large part to preserve Zhukov's reputation.

Not all of Colonel Glantz's findings would have proved so embarrassing to the Soviets. In one of the most contentious debates that emerged from the war, Western historians and their governments throughout the cold war accused Stalin of deliberately holding back the Red Army from aiding the Polish uprising in Warsaw in 1944, thus tacitly permitting German forces to destroy the beleaguered Polish Home Army. But Colonel Glantz concludes, after scrutinizing the documents, that the Red Army initially made every reasonable effort to come to the Poles' assistance and later chose not to — Stalin's political considerations aside — because such action would have required a major reorientation of military efforts and a consequent slackening of the main offensive against German forces.

Using other newly available Soviet military documents, the British historian Antony Beevor focused on the final months of the conflict in his harrowing study, "The Fall of Berlin" (Viking, 2002), during which Russian soldiers victimized two million German women, 50 years before rape was recognized as a war crime.

And where Colonel Glantz shies away from larger historical or cultural analysis, the historian Christopher R. Browning firmly ties what the Nazis called their "war of destruction" against the Soviet Union to the Holocaust. In Mr. Browning's view, which he details in his forthcoming book, "The Origins of the Final Solution" (University of Nebraska), Germany's mass murders of Jews and non-Jews alike on the Eastern Front crystallized Nazi policy regarding the eradication of European Jewry.

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Comments

"Most Americans know remarkably little about World War II's Russian front. Perhaps they know that Sargent Hans Schultz really did not want to be transferred there. But little more."

This begs the question: Just what DO Americans know about the Russian front during WW2? (excluding grognards and war history buffs)

Posted by: CapTVK on February 22, 2004 03:13 PM

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CapTVK wrote, "This begs the question: Just what DO Americans know about the Russian front during WW2?"

I think the major thing they *don't* know is that the Soviets inflicted 6-8 times as many military casualties on the Germans as the West did.

Posted by: liberal on February 22, 2004 03:45 PM

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50 million!!??!! That's about a third of the pre war population, isn't it? I'm a very, very amateur student (basically Beevor and Richard Overy), but everything I remember seeing or hearing says "only" half that. Is this in Erickson, Glantz, and Murray?

I'm with Sergeant Schultz.

Posted by: Declan Trott on February 22, 2004 03:50 PM

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People who are into that kind of thing have an enormous admiration for the Soviet T-34 tank, which, when introduced, far outclassed the German tanks. It had about half a dozen major features superior to anything else at the time. The Germans eventually caught up in quality of design but never were able to produce sufficient numbers.

http://www.2worldwar2.com/t-34-tank.htm

Posted by: zizka / John Emerson on February 22, 2004 04:06 PM

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So Russia covered up thirty million more dead in the war. In order to cover this up for 60 years, one has to assume that future soviet censuses were also rigged, since so many millions missing would have been easy to detect just by looking at the demographic data. So forgive me for being a little skeptical on this cosnpiracy theory.

Posted by: Andres Salama on February 22, 2004 04:22 PM

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It has always been my understanding that the Germans produced superior tanks, but in far fewer numbers. Have you ever played the old Avalon Hill game PanzerBlitz? I'll take a Tiger tank over a T-34 anytime - but not a Tiger against 4 T-34s.

As to encirclement tactics, that was the essence of operational armored warfare - somewhat foreshadowed by the German infiltration tactics of 1918. The Russians had MORE - not necessarily better.

Posted by: TexasToast on February 22, 2004 04:33 PM

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Followup question: "So what would an average American kid learn about WW2 and the role of its (estranged and former) allies in school? (once again excluding grognards and history buffs)

P.S
Yes, I have also seen Hogan's Heroes...

Posted by: CapTVK on February 22, 2004 04:37 PM

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A while back I read (don't remember where) that in WWII over 90% of all German battle deaths occurred on the eastern front. We don't hear much about that from the American popular historians.

Posted by: Chuck on February 22, 2004 04:57 PM

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Re Texastoast comment about superior German tanks: My fuzzy recollection is that the GErman tanks were superior when they worked, but that they were much more susceptible to mechanical breakdown than the T-34.

Posted by: Chuck on February 22, 2004 05:02 PM

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The 1937-1939 purges consumed a tremendous amount of Russian military talent. In 1937 the Commander-in-Chief of the Red Army was shot along with seven leading generals. About half the officer corps met their demise in this period. The admiralty was virtually eliminated. In Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag” books he says that after the Germans invaded, army officers were sent from the prison camps to the front so quickly and hastily that some were still wearing a handcuff on one hand. Then the Soviet Union was ill prepared for the invasion because Stalin actually trusted Hitler. He trusted him so much that he disregarded and even punished his spies who told him that an invasion was being planned. Under these conditions I’m not surprised that their losses at the front were horrific. Moreover a very large number of Soviet soldiers were actually killed by Stalin’s security organs. If you were even suspected of any kind of cowardice or dereliction of duty you were shot immediately. The idea was to make the solders more scared of their own side than the Germans. Those 50 million Soviet deaths (assuming this number is correct) must be viewed in the context of the conditions at that time. A lot of them were the direct result of Stalin’s incompetence, paranoia, interference, treachery and lust for power..

Posted by: A. Zarkov on February 22, 2004 05:15 PM

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Reading about the seige of Leningrad always absolutely chills me to the bone. Suffering on a scale that we can't even imagine.

Posted by: Rebecca Allen, PhD on February 22, 2004 05:23 PM

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When the Nazis and Communists went head-to-head it was hard to know who to root for, both sides were so awful.

Most historians agree that WW II started when Germany invaded Poland, which is true enough, but it's also correct that Russia invaded Poland from the other side at the same time. So Germany started WW II with HELP from Russia.

And then the first German columns rolling through the Ukraine were met by happy citizens with flowers . . . . . . then they learned the Nazis were just as bad as the Stalinists.

The novel "War of the Rats" is a great depiction of the horrors of fighting in Stalingrad, too.

Posted by: Anarchus on February 22, 2004 05:23 PM

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"As to encirclement tactics, that was the essence of operational armored warfare - somewhat foreshadowed by the German infiltration tactics of 1918"

Indeed, the German kesselschlachten (cauldron battles) of 1941 were based on exactly such tactics. To advance them as some sort of indicator of Russian tactical genius strikes me as ludicrous. If the Russians were so brilliant, whether in advance or in retreat, why did they suffer such massive losses in both directions? The 50 million number doesn't smell right to me either, especially on top of the 30 million some believe died in Stalin's concentration camps.

Methinks what we're seeing here is an overreaction in the opposite direction from that provided by the memoirs of German generals like Heinz Guderian and Erich von Manstein. Just because stuff comes from the Soviet archives doesn't mean it's accurate - actually, given the sources, and the fear of repercussions under Stalin's regime, I'd suspect the very opposite.

My provisional assessment still remains that "the Red Army ultimately prevailed not because it was skillful, but because it was so large." Had the Germans been endowed with T-34s from the start of the war, rather than the undergunned and under-armored PzKpfw I, II and IIIs they had to make do with, and had they possessed decent winter clothing and guns that didn't freeze in subzero temperatures, it's almost a certainty that the war in the east would have been over by 1942. The massive flood of American lend-lease material, not least the abundance of motorized transport on the Soviet side that the mostly horse-and-foot-based Germans never enjoyed, also played a crucial role in the Soviet victories. Stalin prevailed because of American industrial might and poor German logistics, not because his generals were better than Hitler's.

Posted by: Abiola Lapite on February 22, 2004 05:55 PM

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Anarchus wrote, "When the Nazis and Communists went head-to-head it was hard to know who to root for, both sides were so awful."

Not if you were Jewish.

"Most historians agree that WW II started when Germany invaded Poland, which is true enough, but it's also correct that Russia invaded Poland from the other side at the same time. So Germany started WW II with HELP from Russia."

Uh huh. And the West doing nothing while Hitler took Czeckoslovakia had nothing to do with it. Right...

Posted by: liberal on February 22, 2004 05:55 PM

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"Not if you were Jewish."

I'm with you on that one. At least Stalin had most of his mass killing behind him by the time the war started. and he never target jews just for being jews (though his timely death in 1954 probably helped in that respect.)

Posted by: Abiola Lapite on February 22, 2004 06:04 PM

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"his timely death in 1954"

Actually, make that 1953.

Posted by: Abiola Lapite on February 22, 2004 06:07 PM

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The Germans kept "improving" their tank designs, but each improvement was not necessessarily compatible with "last year's" model. Thus the German's created a logistical problem for themselves in getting the correct repair parts to the correct units - if they were available at all. The Russians pretty much stayed with one design - making repairs and resupply much easier.

Posted by: TexasToast on February 22, 2004 06:21 PM

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The US likes to teach its school kids the WWII version where the US heroes marched rather easily through France and the US marines fought their way through chains of islands all the way to the shores of Japan. What they usually don't teach is that most of the military casualties were Germans fighting Russians and Japanese fighting Chinese. The US came into WWII late and after many of the large battles were already fought and enemy armies depleted. The big losers in WWII were the Russians, the Chinese, the Germans and the Poles. About half the casualties were Russian and a fifth Chinese. Most of the casualties were civilians and occurred near battlefields. Countries with the highest casualties are those that were the sites of much of the fighting, Russia and China. Many of the civilian deaths in Europe were due to ethnic cleansing, mostly Jews, but also Poles, Gypsies and other groups. The 50 million figure for Russia is not credible. 21 million is appalling enough. That the Russians lost 3 times the number of soldiers as the Germans is because the Russians were on the tactical offensive most of the time, either counter strikes or the long march to Berlin.

Country Military Civilian Total
1 Soviet Union 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000
2 China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
3 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
4 Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
5 Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000
6 Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000
7 Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
8 France 340,000 470,000 810,000
9 Hungary - - 750,000
10Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
11 Greece - - 520,000
12 Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
13 Czechoslovakia - - 400,000
14 Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
15 USA 295,000 - 295,000
16 Holland 14,000 236,000 250,000
17 Belgium 10,000 75,000 85,000
18 Finland 79,000 - 79,000
19 Canada 39,000 - 39,000
20 India 36,000 - 36,000
21 Australia 29,000 - 29,000
22 Spain 12,000 10,000 22,000
23 Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
24 New Zealand 12,000 - 12,000
25 South Africa 9,000 - 9,000
26 Norway 5,000 - 5,000
27 Denmark 4,000 - 4,000

By this account, the US is not even in the top 10. Isolationist policies and not keeping a large standing army minimized US casualties. By the time we were ready, the European war was almost over. As for the Japanese, their army was scattered and immobile because they had to protect an empire. The US was completely mobile having lost almost all its Pacific and Asian possessions in the first months of the war. The Japanese empire required exposed supply lines that made easy targets. This made it possible for the US to overwelm isolated parts of the Japanese army and navy and pick and choose its battles.

Posted by: bakho on February 22, 2004 06:31 PM

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oops. #3 is Germany.

Posted by: bakho on February 22, 2004 06:35 PM

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As I understand, the T-34 was far superior to German tanks at the time it was introduced. It also was simple and durable. The next generation of German tanks was superior to the T-34, but not so durable and not plentiful enough. Various people said parts of this.

This is a different story than the one we've heard -- "The crude Russian tanks outnumbered the superior German tanks." When it appeared, the T-34 was state-fo-the-art, and the Germans had to scramble to catch up. For a variety of reasons they didn't (numerically), but the reason they had to catch up at all is because they started out technically behind. (The Russians upgraded their tanks as the war proceeded too, as I understand, though I don't know how their best matched up with the German best at the end of the war.)

Just sticking up for the Kharkov Tractor Factory.

Posted by: zizka / John Emerson on February 22, 2004 06:57 PM

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Abiola is correct in pointing out the early German tanks were actually inferior to comparable allied tanks. The Germans conquered France by understanding armored warfare - while France, with superior tanks and equipment, "fought the last war."

The Russian successes in 1944 were in some measure a result of the Russian generals (who didnt have the same baggage due to the purges) learning these tactics the hard way – at an enormous cost (no matter what the actual number was.)

Posted by: TexasToast on February 22, 2004 07:07 PM

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The 50 million figure for Russia is not credible.

Yeah, the most likely number is 25-30 million Russians. What a horrifying reality behind that number. The Soviets used their asian troops as minesweepers to save the valuable T-34s.

Why is this pertnent today? The CIA, again, was completely incorrect in its analysis of the danger posed by the USSR. By some accounts, they over guessed the GDP of the USSR by 75%. (sorry, I don't have a link) But with their scorched earth and over 30 million people dead, how much of a threat was Russia? Did we really need to spend trillions of dollars defending ourselves from the commies? Do we really need to spend trillions of dollars defending against terrorists?

Posted by: Troy McClure on February 22, 2004 07:11 PM

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Abiola Lapite wrote, "I'm with you on that one. At least Stalin had most of his mass killing behind him by the time the war started. and he never target jews just for being jews (though his timely death in 1954 probably helped in that respect.)"

I mostly agree with that. Though don't forget that Stalin played all sorts of nasty games with peoples within the Soviet Empire (starving Ukranians, shipping small groups all over, etc).

Posted by: liberal on February 22, 2004 07:24 PM

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Ziska

I hate to belabor the point, but ....

The Germans had their greatest sucesses against the Russians early in the war when the Germans actually did have inferior tanks - so the argument that the T-34 as a superior weapon won the war for Russia doesn't really wash. Yes, Russia did improve its tanks during the war - but Russia generally produced one design at a time. Germany, OTOH, produced many more designs, most of which were superior to Russian designs, but not near as many units.

Posted by: TexasToast on February 22, 2004 07:51 PM

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Does anyone have a credible source for 50 million?

Posted by: Declan Trott on February 22, 2004 08:06 PM

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Re the fall of France in 1940: Ernest May's book "Strange Victory" published 2-3 years ago has a revisionist take on the events of the spring of 1940, namely that the French military was superior to the German in almost all respects except command and control, and the interface between the military and the civilian leadership. It was the weaknesses in these latter that, according to May, resulted in the calamitous defeat of the French and British. All in all a well argued piece of writing.

Posted by: Chuck on February 22, 2004 08:18 PM

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Stephen Ambrose I believe is responsible for the quote that 9 out of 10 Germans killed during the war were at the hands of Soviet soldiers. I think you'll have a hard time getting the Poles to buy the story that the Soviets couldn't get to Warsaw to bail them out in 1944. In 1994 at the 50th anniversary they pointedly did not invite the Russians to their commemoration. They did invite them to watch the festivities from the other side of the river as they had in 1944. I think the Soviets felt the rape and pillage of Germany in 1945 was practically a patriotic duty after what the Nazis had done to them. There was a saying "the Germans are either at your feet or at your throat". In the mid 30's Stalin allowed the Luftwaffe to train at secret airfields in the USSR to get around sanctions. Story is the purges started when word got to Stalin that some of the German officers said some of his men were disloyal and planning a coup. When Stalin realized in 1939 just how badly his purges had wrecked his army's readiness he signed the Ribbentrop Pact to buy time. My ex wife's father was a Soviet colonel in the early days of the war in Ukraine. He along with millions of others were captured and sent west to work in ghastly labor camps. Treated much worse than Westerners and only a little above Jews. They were untermenschen but needed to work so they weren't outright exterminated. He escaped and got back to the USSR but lost a kidney in the process making him unfit for service. He had an engineering degree so they put him to work running a tank factory. When the war ended they threw him in a gulag for two years for the crime of being captured. He would have died there but for some men in his command coming forward to defend his patriotism, an act that took immense bravery in itself on their part. Of 7 brothers he was the only one to survive the war. Her paternal grandfather as far as anyone knows was blown to bits in the defense of Moscow. Western Ukranians did welcome the Nazis with open arms. Stalin had starved up to 30 million of them to death with the collectivization of farms in the 1930s. The Nazis quickly disabused them of the notion that they would treat them any better. They would burn whole villages with the people in them at the least sign of resistance. Hitler delayed the battle for Kursk for 3 crucial weeks in the summer of 1943 so he could get the bugs in the fuel pump of the new Panther tank worked out and get 300 of them in the line. It gave the Soviets precious time to strengthen their defenses. It was the biggest tank battle in history and when the Russians went back over to the offense they chased the Germans all the way back to the west bank of the Dnieper River. Now this was one big honking river. I don't know how wide but I'm guessing as wide as the Mississippi in St. Louis, a half mile or so. The Germans were entrenched on the west bank. The Russins had to cross that river in whatever small boats they had. Stalin promised any man who made it to the other side he'd never have to work another day in his life after the war. A lot of those men who made it across (most didn't) starved on the streets of Russian cities when the USSR fell.

Posted by: Mark Garrity on February 22, 2004 08:26 PM

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Glantz's point of view is just that - his point of view. I've read one of his books and I had the impression that he was a Russophile with an axe to grind. You could just as easily find another qualified historian with a totally different point of view, even in light of post-Soviet documents.

Posted by: rps on February 22, 2004 08:54 PM

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The T-34 was by all accounts the best battle tank of WW2 bar none. It's wide track gave it superior traction in the Russian mud and like all Soviet war machines they were built for durability and simple maintenance by poorly trained crews. A tank needs three things, maneuverability, firepower and frontal armor. It had it in spades and as the war went on and upgrades in firepower and armor became nesessary the chassis could handle it. We never sent them Shermans because frankly they sucked. The Brits called them Ronson lighters for their propensity to shoot flames 12 feet in the air out the main hatch when the ammo or fuel torched off. But every truck in the Soviet army was a Dodge and many more would have starved to death during the war if we didn't send them food. My ex's mother remembered loving some canned fatty stuff from Iowa that sounded to me like what didn't make it into Spam for our GI's. Kept 'em alive after the Nazis burned all the fields and they never forgot it. As for the cold war Stalin was a real threat. He was a crazy paranoid monster. He murdered the communists who helped him take power in Eastern Europe to make sure their was no strong indigenous leadership. He was just following the pattern he used to coalesce his power in the USSR. The Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan were wholly justified and are brilliant examples of American leadership. People were starving in postwar Western Europe in 46-47. There was no bread rationing in Britain during the war but there was
after the war because they were shipping wheat to the French, Germans and Italians. They were all broke and devastated. The Italians and the French were seriously thinking about going communist. Communist dogma has always been to spread their influence at the barrel of a gun. Why we adopted that hairbrained philosophy under the neocons I'll never know.

Posted by: Mark Garrity on February 22, 2004 09:09 PM

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I'll take that as a "no" on the 50 million figure.

Posted by: Declan Trott on February 22, 2004 09:52 PM

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I didn't argue that the T-34 won the war. I argued that the T-34 was, at the time it was produced, by far the best tank around. The Germans had to play catch-up, and while they did produce a better tank, they never really did catch up. Too little, too late.

What I was arguing against was the idea that the Russians had large numbers of inferior tanks. They put large numbers of very superior tanks out there early on, and while the Germans were eventually able to produce a better tank, they didn't do it in time and weren't able to get enough of them into battle. The Russians started out ahead both technically and numerically, and the Germans never caught up.

Posted by: zizka / John Emerson on February 22, 2004 10:11 PM

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Just some scattered comments, drawn from fallible memory.

The T-34 tank aside from some especially well-angled armoring, utilized the rugged Chrissie suspension chassis, named after its inventor, Mr. Chrissie, an engineer at Ford Motor Co. The American military passed on it, but the Soviets took it up- (probably from industrial espionage).

Stalin did purge and imprison or kill the most experienced and competent of his military commanders as threats to his power, leaving the likes of the hapless Marshal Budyenyi (sp?) in charge and is directly responsible from the massive Soviet losses at the outset of Operation Barbarossa. Marshal Zhuhov was himself released from imprisonment at that time. Stalin also placed state security units behind the battle lines, to shoot any retreaters.

The Germans did produce massive heavy tanks toward the end of the war of the "Tiger" and "Panther" types, that were superior per unit to any other tanks, but they were also much more expensive, slower and produced in far too few numbers. The Russian style in military technology was to emphasize durability and repairability and to improve by increments and experience, rather than to design whole new generations from scratch. This continued during the Cold War, wherein the new generations produced up to the T-62 were more or less lineal descendants of the T-34, while the massive amounts of tanks the Soviets were said to possess were largely due to the fact that with their large, cheap manpower supply, they simply did not retire older models. Oddly enough, the U.S.A. and its military/industrial complex seems to have adopted much of the German model, producing limited amounts of technologically advanced but new, expensive and complex equipment. The key issue for tanks is not just the number and quality you possess, but their durability and ease of maintenance, since come battle time, the number of tanks you actually have in operation and the resources you must devote to them will be crucially determined by their susceptibility to break-down and their ease of repair. Fortunately, for our side, this never came to a test.

I would agree with Mr. Garrity that Stalin was a dangerous and oppressive paranoid menace, but this of itself does not entirely explain the course of the Cold War after his death. The neo-cons themselves derive from "Team B" and Reagan's dangerous and superfluous "second" Cold War.

Posted by: john c. halasz on February 22, 2004 10:50 PM

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Amongst the Soviet death toll of (perhaps) circa 24 million were circa 3 million Soviet prisoners of war most of whom were more or less deliberately killed by the Germans July 1941 thru January 1942. This massive killing is actively covered up by prestigious Western museums and the covering up is aided and abetted by historians. See my correspondence with the taxpayer supported US Holocaust Museum re their Soviet Invasion panel:

http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/ushmm/soviet.html

And also see re the London Imperial War Museum's treatment of Soviet military losses:

http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/iwm/soviet.html

A statement from the above web site: >... a film entitled 'Barbarossa' gives no indication of total 1941 Soviet losses and leaves listeners with the impression that the Germans captured less than a million prisoners in 1941, not over two million ... Within easy hearing distance of the 'Barbarossa' film is a display titled "Prisoners of War" containing the statement: "The war of rapid movement ... lead to unprecedented numbers of combatants being taken prisoner. Conditions varied greatly in prisoner of war camps. While most POW's suffered levels of privation and boredom, the situation of Soviet and German captives on the Eastern front was particularly harsh." This statement is the sole prominent reference to the fate of Soviet prisoners at German hands within the IWM's World War II exhibit. The Soviet prisoner death toll was over three million.<

For a discussion of academic scholarship re Soviet "losses"/ Soviet death tolls and my circa 24 million number see: http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-russia&month=0302&week=d&msg=I0jNcX9uCcMbqu7uqut0%2bg&user=&pw=

Per a survey reported by Novick in *The Holocaust in American Life* (p. 232), 51% of Americans do not know that the USSR was allied with the USA in WWII.

Jon Petrie

Posted by: Jon Petrie on February 23, 2004 04:20 AM

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Very interesting discussion re the eastern front. The tank discussion seems to be one of whether you prefer having 2 Jaguars, a Ferrari, and a Citroen vs having six Toyota Camrys. The first choice is the German model and the second choice is the Russian model. Which is superior? It depends on how you define superior.

It seems to me that the whole history of eastern front that we have is one of the few examples of the losing side writing the initial history and the “revisionism” is coming from the winning side. The winners write most of our history.

Posted by: TexasToast on February 23, 2004 05:26 AM

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Beyond the Al Stewart song Roads to Moscow (see http://www.alstewart.com/tabs/Roads.txt), "I know nothing..."

Posted by: Frank on February 23, 2004 05:36 AM

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Sorry about that, the parens messed it up:
http://www.alstewart.com/tabs/Roads.txt

Posted by: Frank on February 23, 2004 05:38 AM

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It is also true that the Soviet accounts of "the Great Patriotic War" have left Russians with the impression that Britain and the US didn't do very much. This omits two of three three dimensions of modern warfare: the sea and the air. The war at sea was essentially betwen the Royal Navy and the Kriegsmarine; in the air, the ease of transferring resources made the fronts interdependent, and it was initially the RAF that held the Luftwaffe and the US Eighth Air Force that destroyed it in the spring of 1944. The great Red Army victories of that year were surely partly due to the lack of air opposition.

Total military casualties in the air and sea wars were of course far lower than on the Eastern Front; but their bitterness - three-quarters of the German U-boat crews were lost - and high concentration of skill and technology made them disproportionately important to the defeat of the Third Reich.

Posted by: James on February 23, 2004 06:18 AM

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Man, toast, you really don't like the T-34, do you? When the T-34 was introduced, it wasn't a Camry. It was best tank in the world. As time passed, the Germans introduced a few boutique tanks which were individually superior, and this strategy would have worked if tank warfare were a series of one-on-one duels.

However anti-Soviet one might be, it's irrational to believe that every single thing the Soviets ever did was inferior. You don't become a Stalinist by saying nice things about the T-34.

Posted by: zizka / John Emerson on February 23, 2004 06:56 AM

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Just a note for anyone who is curious....

For perspective on what war on the Eastern Front was actually like, Guy Sajer's -The Forgotten Soldier- is quite a read.

A good account of German vs. Soviet tactics is F.W. Von Mellenthin, -Panzer Battles-. Mellenthin, who was a staff officer in panzer units through most of the major campaigns in WWII, is quite respectful of Soviet tactics, which improved throughout the war. They started out excellent at defense at the small unit level, and progressively got better first at defense at larger unit levels and then at offense. Mellenthin still believes that the Germans were better tactically at the end of the war, but considering that he finished the war trapped in the Ruhr pocket, he may have been biased by extreme frustration.

NM

Posted by: Nicholas Mycroft on February 23, 2004 07:31 AM

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I actually think the Russian model was superior to the German one in tank production - just as I think the US model of cadallac weapons systems was/is an expensive way to defend ourselves. It will work great in a short war, but would be severly tested in the long drawn out struggle for survival that was the eastern front. However, this same german production model produced the V2 and came close to producing nuclear weapons. So, which is better?

Given a manpower advantage, I'll take the six Camrys anytime - particularly if all the cars have 50000 miles on them and we are about to drive further and further away from our friendly dealer. (BTW, I think that the Camry has been selected as a Consumer Reports Best Buy more often than any other car model.)

The T-34 was a great tank - (satisfied? :)) and was better suited to the Russian soldier and the logistical issues that more primative communciations and the immense size of the eastern front presented. But one on one? Mano y mano?

Posted by: TexasToast on February 23, 2004 07:35 AM

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So what is the general public to take away from this, more than, but on a par with, the one-line disinclination of Sgt Schultz to go to the Russian Front?

That the Soviets were racist -- sacrificing it's conquered colonial conscripts to the war?

That the Soviets were rapists -- par with the Japanese at Nanking?

That the Soviets were even more willing to tolerate peasant death than the Czars?

Or is the lesson to be about the Nazis? That Hitler was even a bigger fool than we previously thought for trusting Stalin?

That the past-Nazi Germans -- starved, raped, killed, maimed -- are even more to be commended for "bouncing back" under the Marshall Plan than we previously thought?

Posted by: Pouncer on February 23, 2004 08:30 AM

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I second Nicholas Mycroft's recommendation of "The Forgotten Soldier" by Sajer. A similarly good, unvarnished personal memoir of the war in the Pacific is "With the Old Breed, at Peleliu and Okinawa", by Eugene Sledge. The author, against standing orders, surreptitiously kept notes in his bible during his duty with the 1st Marine Division and wrote up the memoir shortly after he got home after the war. Thus it's fairly contemporaneous and not much distorted by a memory become more selective with time. The manuscript sat hidden in his desk drawer for decades until his kids (as I recall) convinced him to self-publish it around 1990.

Posted by: Chuck on February 23, 2004 08:51 AM

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"Or is the lesson to be about the Nazis? That Hitler was even a bigger fool than we previously thought for trusting Stalin?"

Say what? Hitler trusting Stalin? Trusting Stalin? The leader of the country he invaded after being allied with them?
Pouncer, in which alternative history did Hitler ever trust Stalin? If anyone trusted someone, it was rather the other way around.

Posted by: Kristjan Wager on February 23, 2004 11:05 AM

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Mark Garrity writes

"I think you'll have a hard time getting the Poles to buy the story that the Soviets couldn't get to Warsaw to bail them out in 1944."

Indeed.

Especially since Stalin himself encouraged/promised help to the uprising before it broke and then pretended that
there was no uprising once it was underway
(in a telegram to Churchill).

And also because the Russian army sat aimlessly on the other side of the Vistula during the fighting.

And also becuase Stalin refused to let Allied
planes with supplies for the insurgents
land in Russian controled territory near Warsaw
(later rescinded under pressure from the British).

And also because that when he did allow the Polish
portion of his army (2nd Army led by Berling) to
make an offensive on the eastern suburbs of Warsaw
late in the course of the uprising, he refused to
provide them with artillary support making the
whole escapade essentially pointless.

etc.

The controversial question among Polish historians is rather whether the leadership of the Home Army should've rationally expected as much from Stalin, and having taken it into account still called for the uprising to take place, risking (and
ultimately being responsible for) the lives of
several hundred thousand people, civilians and
combatants.

nb, Vladimir Vysotsky's got a great song about
this subject matter - "Tank"

Posted by: radek on February 23, 2004 01:58 PM

____

Oh yeah, most Russians probably don't know
that much about the War in the Pacific either.
Outside of history buffs and those who've seen
"Torah, Torah, Torah!" of course. Though probably
slightly more than Americans know about the Eastern Front.

Posted by: radek on February 23, 2004 02:36 PM

____


IIRC a T-34 could be built from scratch in 22 hours.

"Stalin did purge and imprison or kill the most experienced and competent of his military commanders as threats to his power, leaving the likes of the hapless Marshal Budyenyi (sp?) in charge and is directly responsible from the massive Soviet losses at the outset of Operation Barbarossa. Marshal Zhuhov was himself released from imprisonment at that time."

I don't believe Zhukov was ever imprisoned- you may be thinking of Konstantin Rokosovskii?

Posted by: Richard on February 23, 2004 02:59 PM

____

Good points about approach to arms/tanks/aircraft---the Cadillac approach or the Camry approach?

A note about the Sherman tank in WWII---in contrast to the Cadillac approach to building weapons systems today in the US, it was decidedly the Camry of its time. While it was much maligned by US troops in not having the armor or firepower to match a Panther tank, it had some very, very important virtues.

It was a hell of a lot more reliable and serviceable in the field than its German counterparts, and had longer track-treadlife. No small issue considering that more tanks are more often generally lost/disabled due to mechanical failure than combat. It also consumed less fuel in operation.

Logistically, speaking, one could fit more Shermans in transport ships as well.

Quantity and reliability helped win out here.

Posted by: silverkris on February 23, 2004 03:30 PM

____

The estimate of fifty million Soviet dead comes from the fourth paragraph of the NY Times article that Amygdala links to: "From evidence released from Soviet archives since the mid-1980's, scholars have learned, for example, that Soviet deaths numbered nearly 50 million, two and half times the original estimate" Thus the author clearly states that this is a new estimate based on new materials from Soviet archives. Perhaps we could ask for details on the source of this from the author of the NY Times article, Benjamin Schwarz, the literary editor and the national editor of The Atlantic Monthly.

I bring this up because this thread seems to have concluded that the fifty million figure is wrong because it contradicts earlier estimates which doesn't seem conclusive to me given that the author states these are new estimates based on new sources !

On the other hand, as a colleague at work asked, if true, why didn't the Soviets publicize this, what was the advantage to them of hiding this ?

Also as other comments mentioned I thought past Soviet censi were accurate. I thought that was how calculations of deaths from Stalin's purges were calculated. I think Emmanuel Todd mentions this in "La Chute Finale" but I'm sure there are less obscure references to this technique

Posted by: George Colpitts on February 23, 2004 05:34 PM

____

Tanks smanks. Qaddafi's army lost a column of modern Russian tanks to anti-tank weapons mounted on the back of Datsun pickups.

The German tanks could move firepower forward rapidly. However, an army is limited by the ability to keep it supplied in the field. Hitler and Napoleon lost in Russia because they choked on their own supply lines. The quality of the tank means less than the ability to keep it supplied.

General Sherman understood logistics better than any other modern commander. Rather than have his troops bogged down in Atlanta, he burned the town and headed for the seaport of Savannah. Sherman was not interested in occupying territory. He was interested in convincing people to obey the law. While the Germans grasped Shermans flanking techniques, they never could get the hang of the logistics problem.

Germany had to retreat because they could neither supply their troops nor convince the Russians to accept their authority as rulers and supply their troops for them. Not that the Germans tried much diplomacy. The Germans wanted their troops to be occupiers. That was doomed to failure.

As for learning anything about the war in the Pacific from watching Tora Tora Tora, the movie starts with the planning for the Pearl Harbor attack and ends with talk of waking the sleeping giant. Nimitz is not even in the movie. His understanding of lines of supply and their protection by projecting air power were critical to the success of the US and the demise of the Japanese Navy. Halsey's implementation of airpower and tactics were brilliant.

The decision to concentrate all firepower on Japanese carriers / air power and control the air turned the tide at MIdway. The Japanese also lost many of their best pilots and air strategists. The control of the airstrip at Guadacanal allowed the Americans to protect their supply lines and eventually move to the counterattack. The strategy of Nimitz to bypass non threatening outposts and isolate them by cutting off their supply lines made progress faster. Nimitz kept his forces mobile by not occupying every podunk island in the Pacific. The attacks on Japanese shipping weakened their ability to prosecute the war. Wisely, the US, Britain and India stayed out of China. Supply would have been difficult. Just look at the Burma road mess. The Pacific War was about the use of air power to screen supply lines and submarines to attack the Japanese supplies.

It is not clear what the Germans hoped to accomplish with troops in Moscow. They wasted a lot of troops and supplies unnecessarily. They certainly did not have the logistics to support the operation in Russia. Sherman would have burned the towns and destroyed the railroads and other transportation. After all, burning Jackson and Meridian and destroying the railroads for miles in all direction put an end to the ability to support large armies in that MS for the remainder of the US Civil War. Had the Germans destroyed the infrastructure and left, the Russians would have had difficulty supplying the troops for a counterattack. However, the Germans failed to demolish the very resources that would be used against them in their retreat.

The Russians had the logistics solved. They never learned flanking movements. They had the manpower to outflank the Germans and force a retreat at much less loss of life. They instead engaged in a bloody war of attrition.

Posted by: bakho on February 23, 2004 05:58 PM

____

Another point lost in Tora Tora Tora. The Japanese thought they could cripple the US fleet for a year or longer. It took the Navy 3 months to launch offensive operations. The Japanese made the mistake of bombing the battleships and leaving the fuel storage intact. Had they bombed the fuel storage but left the battleships, the US Navy would have had no choice but to retreat to California.

Posted by: bakho on February 23, 2004 06:04 PM

____

George,
The fourth paragraph of the NYT article was where I got the 50 million figure (it is right at the top of the post), but it appears nowhere else in the article. That is why I wanted to check it out. "Since the mid 80s scholars have learned" covers the last 20 years, and implies something that is now pretty common knowledge. But I have seen and heard much more recent pieces that do not mention 50 million. Given the way Beevor, Glanz, Millet and Murray's findings on rapes, Operation Mars, the Warsaw uprising, and the quality of Soviet operations are carefully given individual attribution, I was surprised such a shocking figure was not linked to any specific source at all. If it is a new estimate based on new sources - that would be all the more reason to say who had done it.

P.S. Good to know that someone was paying attention!

Posted by: Declan Trott on February 23, 2004 08:14 PM

____

I checked it out and Richard is correct. Zhukov expected to be purged, but managed to get a posting to Mongolia, from which he was recalled to prepare the defense of Moscow. 40,000 officers were purged, including 3 field marshals.

Posted by: john c. halasz on February 23, 2004 11:58 PM

____

“Tanks smanks. Qaddafi's army lost a column of modern Russian tanks to anti-tank weapons mounted on the back of Datsun pickups.”

No one had the anti-tank weapons in 1941/42 that we have today. The US army has decided, in its infinite wisdom, not to build another main battle tank as the armored fighting vehicle has effectively been rendered obsolete by a number of factors that didn’t exist 60 years ago. Cavalry charges worked before the machine gun came along as well.

“General Sherman understood logistics better than any other modern commander. Rather than have his troops bogged down in Atlanta, he burned the town and headed for the seaport of Savannah. Sherman was not interested in occupying territory. He was interested in convincing people to obey the law. While the Germans grasped Shermans flanking techniques, they never could get the hang of the logistics problem.”

The situations are entirely different. Savannah was a limited attainable objective and was easily supplied. You didn’t see Sherman head toward Montgomery for instance. During the fight from Chattanooga to Atlanta, Sherman and Johnston both maneuvered brilliantly as both were tied to a single rail line to supply their armies. Sherman didn’t abandon his supply line until the Army of Tennessee was rendered impotent at the Battle of Atlanta. After the Battle of Atlanta, Hood actually attempted to cut Sherman’s supply line by attacking Nashville. The battle of Franklin and the destruction of the Army of Tennessee was the result. Sherman succeeded in destroying both the army opposing him and the ability of the south to support that army.

Unlike the American Civil war, the Eastern front was a continuous front war from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Behind the Russian line was space and more space. There was no Savannah at the end of the German advance east and the Red Army was never rendered impotent. Even if the Germans had won at Stalingrad, then what? They had neither destroyed the Red Army as a fighting force nor the ability of the Soviet Union to support that army. Sherman did both in the western theatre of the American Civil War. In the east, while Lee’s army was not destroyed, Grant succeeded in pinning it to a defense of Richmond while Sherman was ravaging the territory that supported it. Grant held Lee in place while Sherman pulled the supply rug out from under him. The Russian capacity to supply its army was never really threatened.

“Germany had to retreat because they could neither supply their troops nor convince the Russians to accept their authority as rulers and supply their troops for them. Not that the Germans tried much diplomacy. The Germans wanted their troops to be occupiers. That was doomed to failure.”

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?

Posted by: TexasToast on February 24, 2004 09:13 AM

____

Radek wrote, "Oh yeah, most Russians probably don't know that much about the War in the Pacific either. Outside of history buffs and those who've seen 'Torah, Torah, Torah!' of course. Though probably slightly more than Americans know about the Eastern Front."

Given the ratio of German casualties inflicted by the Soviets to Japanese casualties inflicted by the US, and of Soviet casualties to US casualties, it should be pretty clear which is the greater omission.

Posted by: liberal on February 24, 2004 10:41 AM

____

The Soviets moved whole factories to the other side of the Urals to escape the Nazis. Hitler and
his generals were shocked from day one at the size of the Soviet army. They couldn't believe the number of prisoners they took in the first months and couldn't believe the numbers that Zhukov kept throwing at them after that. Hitler and diplomacy? Slavs were untermenschen to the whole German army. They left no illusions they were there to liberate them. They were there for liebensrum. That's not to say the regular Whermacht participated in all the really horrible atrocities but they were convinced of their superiority. If Hitler had won by now the peoples Eastern Europe would have suffered the same fate as that of the Gypsies and others. Not quite the methodical extermination of the Jews just the slow enslavement and destruction of their peoples. Strategically Hitler needed oil and instead wasted his armies attempting to capture and/or destroy cities.

Posted by: Mark Garrity on February 24, 2004 12:28 PM

____

The corruption of the Cold War began under the Dulles Bros, who took over State and the CIA under Eisenhower. They saw commies in every indigenous nationalist movement round the world
and destroyed governments in Iran and Guatemala for starters they should have left alone. Would have saved a lot of trouble and hundreds of thousunds of dead over the next 4 decades.

Posted by: Mark Garrity on February 24, 2004 12:40 PM

____

Re: "Oh yeah, most Russians probably don't know that much about the War in the Pacific either."

I am not sure if "Oh yeah ..." was written in response to my comments re Western historical museums reluctance to inform fully and forcefully about Soviet losses --- but if the writer does feel its OK for our institutions to misinform, given the old enemy is misinformed, then I and the writer share very different values.

Beyond prestigious museum statements and general ignorance, a major foundation of the low appreciation of Soviet WWII death tolls in the West is the circulation by important institutions of a "five million" figure for the "others" killed in the broadly defined (Nazi) Holocaust. Something over 15 million Slavic non-combatants died 1940-1945 as a result of German actions, actions informed by Nazi racial ideology.

[Per the computer screens of the "Crimes against Humanity" permanent exhibit at London's Imperial War Museum: >>Victims of the Nazis ... 1,800,000 non Jewish Poles and many hundreds of thousands [!!] of Ukrainians, Belorussians, Czechs and other Slavs were killed. In total, some eleven million people are estimated to have been killed by the Nazis and their collaborators for racial and political reasons.

And: "How many non-Jewish civilians were murdered during World War II? ... approximately 5,000,000." (Simon Wisenthal Center on its web site -- >http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/questions/#3<)


The "five million" figure was invented by Wisenthal, sees wide use, and is virtually never questioned by Holocaust historians.

On H-Holocaust 9 Jan '04 I asked: "Can [anyone] cite a forceful widely circulated protest by an academic (beyond [Dr. Novick's] words) of the five million number, a protest which states that the number grossly misleads, ... demands that the number be changed ?" No response on H-Holocaust (a discussion group of academic Holocaust scholars) but at least 24 postings in January on the subject of why Auschwitz was not bombed.

It does seem to me that the tolerance of prominent misleading misrepresentation and plain untrue misrepresentation of major death tolls 1940-1945 by scholars and others who do know better is both morally questionable and suggests a lack of belief on their part that knowledge of history in democracies has importance.

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