Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)

But you didn't tell us we have to read Chapter 5 of Hernan de Soto's The Mystery of Capital first.

this part intrigued me most:
"Squatters in the United States, operated extra- (indeed contra-) legally established systems of rights over land."

I assume he is talking about squatters in the westward expansion. I don't think you go far enough in your objection, Prof D. It is not just Mexican and Native American individuals these squatters shoved off, but these people had their own "systems of rights." So it is not only a matter of feeling sorry for the people pushed off, but a conceptual question of why one system is recognized as a system and another is not.

And what were these "systems of rights" other than force, and temporary alliances among the squatters to use force against the people being pushed off? Why would that be a system? A person can find an excuse to find a system retrospectively in pretty much any old thing that happens, that doesn't mean there ever was a system to it.

Often squatters in the west were squatting because land speculators had locked up tracts of better land just beyond the last legal settlements. Often these speculators were also evading the law. What if the squatters had squatted on that land? If the "systems of rights" spoken of here were based on force, there would be an easy explanation -the rich white guys who were the speculators could hire goons to kick the squatters' asses, probably. What would be a Nozick style reaction to squatters who did take over rich white speculators' land? Horrer at the violation of the speculators' property rights. Or if the rich white speculators' goons could not drive them off, and the rich white speculators' called on the government to help enforce their property rights, would this be a government interference in the squatters' "systems of rights".

I don't know if I have time to read deSoto. Maybe a poster here can provide a capsule. I'll lay my cards on the table. Unless there is evidence that an extra legal "system of rights" is a self-enforcing self-perpetuating entitiy that also shows come kind of stability over time, I have a hard time believing that it is a real thing. I tend to believe it is a fiction that has no reality whatever. I tend to think it is just an emotive noise showing sympathy for whoever you like who could kick some one else's ass.

So that is my attempt at a provocative thought experiment.

Ah. But there was a time--1756--when Windham, Maine, about ten miles northwest of Portland, Maine, was the wild west...

OK, OK, I meant to include your ancestral squatters too! Didn't mean to leave them out! They were part of the westward expansion, didn't mean to imply otherwise.

The game started long ago. And there were speculators and squatters certainly by the time of our first president, who I guess was one of the speculators, or investors, or something like that.

Cool you could find out who your ancestors stole the land from. I have to check up on the colonial ancestor branch of my family tree and see how they got theirs. I know in detail how they *lost* theirs, unfortunately.

The California side of my family got their land legal from Southern Pacific. But the whole area where I grew up was originally supposed to be a California Native American Reservation by some treaty in 1856 (I think). So I am not looking down on nobody neither. And the California Native American's had quite an ornate system of land. There were huge differences between tribes, of course. In Central Valley and North Coast, much real property was held in common by whole band or tribe. But specific resources could be held by villages, or families or individuals: fishing holes, oak trees, berry patches. That was just as much a system as anything squatters could display.

At some point in history, every group has been the shaftee or the shafter. It, unfortunately, is the way of the world.

And before I forget...
In many California Nations, a family or individual could pass a tree or a fish hole to the next generation. Or buy or trade one resource for another. You could own the acorns on an oak tree, and some one else could own the galls.

Ok that is a real system. I'm not sure a bunch of squatters staking out some plots and land and waving or shooting their guns to run people off as needed is a system. Why is that a system?

If we assume that people don't have souls or consciences, then shooting people in the back is just a disease, like carrying smallpox...

David is right, as regards the issue of why some peoples' systems are recognized as systems and others' aren't. The Native Americans, to nineteenth-century Whites, just...weren't people. Putting the issue to them in the terms of this debate would get you as far as saying that the Whites had stolen the land from the bison.

And Chapter 5 of de Soto is well worth the read. It asks a lot of the right questions about a technical detail of the Westward Expansion (when that meant expanding West of Indiana) that are almost always overlooked.

Help help there's a hole in my philosophy.
The natural right to property. HA
I think Nietztsche had the best observations about how humans create rights. First with blood and second with theories.

Which leads me to observe that ideological free market conservatives are incredibly naive about human nature and reality itself. While the Liberals having lost their 1960s cheery optimism are the new realists. They see humans as they are, not as they would like them to make their political theory consistent.

This is even more curious as conservative pundits present themselves as macho realists and their critics as dreamers.

When the "Right" begins losing their religion they will become interesting agian.

Delong quotes (or writes ?)

" what to do when property "rights" are acquired through force or fraud, he "do[es] not know of a thorough or theoretically sophisticated treatment of such issues."

What to do indeed. Though I am myself a moderate liberal conservative (in no particular order) even I must admit that the history of capital accumulation is not altogether a pretty sight -- as witness the slave trade, or much more recently those 26 Russian billionaires who somehow managed to appropriate the capital infrastructure of the old Soviet Union (itself created under the most horrific of circumstances).

And yet it's also true that there is an uncountable number of far more honest stories -- to take just one contemporary example, what's so wrong about the career of Warren Buffet?

Bottom line: capital is the accumulated crime and sacrifice of centuries, plus interest. This is the truth we've got to learn to live with.

DeSoto does indeed show that if the official legal system doesn't come up with a way of registering property, other forms will kick in to do so. Try "The Other Path", it's out of print, but not hard to find. I actually found it quite boring to read, but DeSoto makes his point.

However, DeSoto's larger point is that such systems keep a lot of capital out of the system and unavailable for use in developing the economy. Property that isn't officially protected by the State (and believably protected) is also always vulnerable - so people are unwilling to invest in more real property because of the fear of loss of it.

None of this will come as any surprise to anyone who's read their Weber.

At some point in history, every group has been the shaftee or the shafter. It, unfortunately, is the way of the world.

The inevitably scandalous origin of every institution of property is precisely why it can't be regarded as a fundamental or transcendent right, though some convention of property is useful and nearly essential practically.

"To prove a legal title to land one must trace it back to the man who stole it."

David Lloyd George

I think our legal systems won out over the Indian's. As far as 19th century California history goes, ISTR the Mexican land grants were respected after the US took over administration (though most holdings succumbed to the lure of cashouts).

Troy:
I think our legal systems won out over the Indian's.
-what does that mean? Our legal systems won out whenever we could shoot them dead. Is that what you mean? What relevance does this have for the discussion here. Please elaborate.

As far as 19th century California history goes, ISTR the Mexican land grants were respected after the US took over administration (though most holdings succumbed to the lure of cashouts).
-I think this is true. But this only applies to those who were in the upper classes and who would receive land grants in the first place.

Our legal system of 'fee simple' land tenancy, granted by the state, was operating in legal vacuum. The Indians didn't have land deeds or a central authority to base their own land claims on.

For the longest while the US was reasonably respectful of Indian rights, but when the 19th century got started might won out over right. After all, what was the Louisiana Purchase about? It's not like we stole land just from the natives, we expanded a land tenancy regime that stole the land from everyone, including you and me today.

Hence my first quote from DLG above.

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