Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)

Maybe this is the view that only Republicans are allowed to criticize Presidents?

Hmm. What's the line about glass houses?:

"our soft power is a great deal harder and more powerful than our hard power."

It seems to me that Eric Alterman at Altercation ought to have been given some credit for this.

I think Dennis realized that he had stepped off the reservation and needed to get back on real fast before DeLay came and whupped him on the side of his head.

Geez, Bush is FINALLY going to put the kibosh on a load of pork, and the House is dragging its feet.

And in your eyes, "we weren't getting straight numbers from them" is equivalent to calling someone "crooked and a liar?" Reaching a bit, aren't we?

Somehow I missed the words "confused, mendacious, and inconsistent" in the transcript.

As much as I hate to defend Bush or Hastert, there's no inconsisteny in what he said. Even if you grant that Hastert was describing Bush as confused, mendacious and inconsistent -- a reasonable extrapolation from Hastert's comment -- it does not follow that all Republicans are confused, mendacious, and inconsistent. Which is why Hastert said, "And, you know, I have tried to serve my tenure -- I am one of those Republicans in Illinois. If he wants to describe me as being crooked and a liar, I think he will have his comeuppance coming."

I.e., "I, Dennis Hastert, am a Republican, and I don't fit Kerry's attack on all Republicans. His attack may be true of President Bush, but it's not true of all Republicans."

I don't see where Hastert has contradicted himself. Care to elaborate?

Ummm ... Brad,

You're getting way over the partisan line here. In one case he admited that the President's peoples numbers simply don't add up - a courageous statement actually given the rammifications.

In the other case, he's taking personal umbrage at an implication that he may be crooked and a liar. Now I'm no fan of Dennis Hastert, but if he's honest enough to admit to the Press core that the Administration's numbers just don't ADD UP then that honesty gives him at least a modest claim to being genuinely offended at any implication of himself as a liar or a crook in the second case.

In other words, the two statements seem to reinforce each other. Oh, and btw you've mistated the Turing Test.

Just to add to Oldman's last line. The Test is not whether the individual can "maintain the thread of meaning", but whether the interrogator would conclude he is talking to a human or a computer."

What is being forgotten is that it was quite clear that, when Kerry said "these people" he did not mean all Republicans. He meant those Republicans that are attacking Kerry on Bush's behalf.

I realize that the question posed to Denny stated that Kerry's comment was directed at all Republicans, but Denny could have easily put himself above the fray by saying "well, Kerry wasn't talking about me, so its not my problem." The problem is that Denny didn't do that.

Anyway, if Denny's feelings are truly hurt, he can cry about it to the other three remaining "Illinois Republicans." Even before George Ryan, Illinois was a decidedly Blue State. After Ryan and the 2002 election, we are the second Bluest State in the nation. There is simply no "comeuppance" available for Denny, Pate, and the two other "Illinois Republicans."

Hm, the reasoning behind this entry reminds me of some of tbrosz's recent contributions. Not to mention that somewhere around 90% of our politicians would likely fail the Turing test, so this isn't really news.

Btw, didn't a major terrorist attack happen just the other in Madrid? I heard rumors, but seems they must be false 'coz they made barely a ripple around here.

"Geez, Bush is FINALLY going to put the kibosh on a load of pork, and the House is dragging its feet."

Why is it Republicans talk about the House as if it isn't Republicans.

And why is it that this is a presumed conflict, rather than a division of labor?

Right, wingnuts spin in reverse, I keep forgetting this.

So "these guys" actually means "all republicans"?

If the shoe fits...

"Hmm. What's the line about glass houses?:

"our soft power is a great deal harder and more powerful than our hard power.""

Posted by: Patrick R. Sullivan

Patrick, that's the point If the mass media decides that they can't swallow any more, and a number of Republican politicians decide that they can't take it any more, and a number of moderate conservatives get fed up with Bush...

Bush would still have the power and perks of the presidency, but probably not the next term.

The complete text illusrates H's dialogue as leaving some room for improvement if, not in the Turing Intelligence Test ( slightly mangled version as Oldman states) then (in our assessment of) his status as an educated person.
How many of us, hearing this:
"...it deals with jobs, it deals with our dealing with our corporations..." or this:
"... It wasn't sustained by the revenues coming into the highway fund. And that was talking about probably what they perceived as needs, but it wasn't sustained by revenue."
hear the syntax of Bushian grammar?
There can't be too many who regard H's side of the dialogue as a shining example of educated discourse. Can there?
And let's put Turing in his place please, not the sole arbiter of who or what is "intelligent".

Mmm, gotta say that I read this post like three times, scratching my head and wondering how the snippets Brad posted were in any way related to his commentary. I'm no fan of Dennis Hastert but I think Brad's seeing inconsistencies that aren't there.

Having said that, the fact that Hastert doesn't trust White House numbers definitely makes you go hmmmm.....

david (and others), i don't see what's so complicated here.

Hastert says, with one breath, that he doesn't trust the white house staff, filled as it is with dishonest folk who give bad numbers, and then in the next says how awful it is that john kerry notes that the white house is filled with dishonest folk who give bad numbers.

so after revealing his true feelings, haster than seems like a man retreating to talking points to me....

Just a Turing test comment. As noted above the Turing test has little to do with maintaining a thread of meaning. It has to do with being unable to tell whether one is talking to a human or a computer. In that respect, Scott McClellan wins the reverse Turing test. You can never tell from reading the transcripts whether it's a human or a computer repeating talking points no matter what the question.

Speaking of "confused, mendacious, and inconsistent" (and, according to the FEC, illegal):

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=151

----------quote------------
"Announcer: Times are tough. So you work overtime to make ends meet. Then you find out George Bush wants to eliminate overtime pay for 8 million workers. Two million jobs lost. Jobs going overseas. And now, no overtime pay.

"When it comes to choosing between corporate values and family values, face it, George Bush is not on our side."

[snip]

" [Elaine] Chao: Let me be clear. The department's overtime proposal for white-collar workers will not eliminate overtime protection for 8 million workers as alleged. . . . We believe that 1.3 million workers will gain overtime, they'll be guaranteed overtime, and less than about 644,000 may potentially face the prospect (of losing the legal right to overtime.)"

The 8-million figure comes from the Economic Policy Institute....

Even EPI concedes that many low-income workers would be gaining the right to overtime pay. Under the proposed rules any employee making less than $425 per week would be eligible for overtime benefits, up from the present level of $155, a figure that hasn't been changed since 1975. In its study , published in June 2003, EPI said that change "is sorely needed."

Later, EPI estimated that fewer than 737,000 workers would gain coverage....

...The proposed rule changes are extensive, covering executive employees who can hire and fire others, administrative employees in a "position of responsibility", so-called "Learned Professional Employees" who have "knowledge of an advanced type," creative professionals, outside sales workers and certain computer workers such as systems analysts or software engineers. (None of these groups look very much like the blue-collar factory hand in the Moveon.org ad, by the way.)

---------------endquote------------

Don't talk about Turing tests around Patrick and tbrosz. It's a touchy issue with them.

I always thought that the point of the overtime rules was to overturn cases like Krystal or some fast food company, where they defined people as "managers" or "assistant managers", who were just glorified fry cooks, and then refused to pay them overtime. When lawsuits were filed, the companies just got pounded. the fear that people might realize the real opportunities in this area led to the new rules.

If I am right about this, all of the estimates are irrelevant, because the new rules just legalize a procedure that is already in place, and protect big companies from lawsuits they would surely lose.

Patrick

The truth seems to be that 8 million would lose the right to overtime but that far fewer than the entire 8 million presently earn any overtime.

moveon.org does not make this distinction but the statement by Chao contains an outright lie.

Zizka: "Don't talk about Turing tests around Patrick and tbrosz. It's a touchy issue with them."

This seems to be a reference to intelligence.

I'm an aerospace engineer, fifty years old, doing launch system work for DARPA. Care to share what brain-bending occupation you have?

Looks like I'll need more roses.

"If I am right about this, all of the estimates are irrelevant, because the new rules just legalize a procedure that is already in place, and protect big companies from lawsuits they would surely lose." --Masaccio--

Right you are. As a white collar worker who worked for many years for a large corporation and as someone who knows many others who do, I can tell you that around the mid nineties there was a push to move employees over to exempt status who hadn't been there before. It also came with an expectation, unofficial of course, that the work week had just expanded to a minimum of 45 hours. Since large corporations are run like dictatorships it was clear that the independent decision making that could have qualified us for exempt status was definitely frowned upon. Some contacted the DOL and were told, helpfully, that if they wanted to take action it would be advisable to have another job lined up. Now it is routine that extra unpaid hours are much to be preferred over the creation of new jobs to carry the workload. At first it was only in response to deadlines looming but now the deadlines are always looming, one after another. It has become entrenched with no way out. The Bush administration knows what's going on here and is simply looking to eliminate that uncomfortable feeling that comes from violating the law.

Hastert is a little better than Doctor on EMACS (which is the ancient ELIZA program in Emacs-Lisp), but not by much. A more recent vintage is A.L.I.C.E. Here's a brief exchange with Alice (see http://www.alicebot.org/) on the Hastert question list, edited to fit the input line.. Try your own!

Suggestion to DeLong: Get one of your techie students to set up a BUSHBOT

Q: Where do you get your ideas?

ALICE: Do you feel more body sensations than emotions?

Q: What kind of numbers were you getting from them?

ALICE: What kinds of numbers were you getting from them are there?

Q Different from?

ALICE: Can you tell me any gossip?

"Suggestion to DeLong: Get one of your techie students to set up a BUSHBOT"

A tricky task because of Dubya's neoconologisms, but a Bot McClellan shouldn't be too hard to code.

Tbrosz -- I translate Mongol and Chinese poetry for fun.

It's not an IQ reference. It refers to a test of AI. Someone who flunks a Turing test if they behave predictably, like an automaton, or if they have no common sense, or if, as in this case, they contradict themselves without seeming to notice.

Deep Blue would flunk a Turing test

On topic: between fake salaried "supervisor" jobs, more and more part-time temp work, contract work, deunionization, and illegal under-the-table work, workers are hurting. I agree that outsourcing is far from the biggest problem, but outsourcing has to be interpretted in the context of ~23 years of other losses.

.

Tbrosz is a rocket scientist on the government tete? wow

" The Moveon.org ad shows a worker in a hardhat punching a time clock..."

Meaning the lie is Moveon's. Because if you punch a time clock you're an hourly worker.

I'm not sure that's true anymore, Patrick. If a company has a third or more of its employees on salary as "management", I don't think that that means that they take a third of their employees off the clock. It might just mean that they expect them to keep working after they punch out.

I'm not kidding, I'm thinking of people I know.

Like Wal-mart?

And I've heard that Intel used to have rigorous
sign-in checks - sign in after 8 AM, and you'd
get in trouble. That was supposed to be for white-collar workers, and back in the late 1990's, when the labor markets were much tighter.

PS., Patrick -- granted that MoveOn is right, they obviously weren't lying. But even if you had been technically right, it still wouldn't have been a lie. Just an anachronistic graphic. In a company where 30% of the employees are "management", you can be sure that a lot of those are ordinary, clock-punching-type labor. Moveon's point would have been good. (Where I worked you clocked in by phone -- should MoveOn have had to have shown that in their ad?)

Guys, you're missing the point completely. You don't have to be "management" to be a SALARIED employee. You could be a receptionist, an inside salesperson, a bookkeeper.

Employers have always been loath to have such employees do any thing overt such as punching a time clock. That established them as HOURLY emloyees, thus required paying them for any overtime. The Moveon ad is definitely a lie, as no factory worker punching a time clock is going to be a salaried employee.

Patrick, back to you. The physical timeclock is an obsolete bit of nostalgia in a sense, but the thing that we've been trying to get through your thick head is that THINGS HAVE CHANGED. For a variety of reasons, a lot of plain old labor people have been reclassified as management -- strikebreaking is one motive, avoiding overtime is another. So categories which used to be labor are now "management". These salaried employees do not collect overtime, but they're still expected to put in their same old 40 hrs. as a minimum, and they're still on the clock even though their pay is not calculated hourly.

I don't know the numbers nationally but I've been told that in some companies 1/3 of the staff is "management".

Even in the old days, Patrick, people other than factory workers punched timeclocks.

Sorry Patrick, but modern quality practices frequently require detailed accounting of all worker hours, including salaried employees. I've worked on such systems. So punching a timecard is not an activity exclusive of hourly workers.

" THINGS HAVE CHANGED"

No kidding! Do you suppose that might be why the DOL is proposing to change regulations that are now 50 YEARS OLD?

http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/speeches/541_Side_By_Side.htm

Note the exemptions from FLSA, such as:

" administrative, professional, computer or outside sales employee"

and

" Primary duty of performing office or non-manual work directly related to management policies OR [my emphasis] general business operations"

and

"directly assists a proprietor, or exempt executive or administrative employee"

and

" Performs work that is predominantly intellectual and varied in character and is of such character that the output produced or result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given period of time."

Now, anyone want to argue with a straight face that the above applies to the guy in the hardhat punching the time clock in the Moveon ad?

Patrick, I was a salaried employee at NIST for 2 years. I didn't have to punch a time clock, but I did have to log my hours and hand in the log every 2 weeks. And if the total didn't add up to 80 for each two weeks, I didn't receive my full salary (I had, of course, sick time I could count towards my 80).

This was their new, friendly 'flex time' system that meant I didn't have to be there precisely from 8-5 (though my group leader made it clear there I had better be there something pretty close to 8-5).

My colleagues who have worked in industry report much worse. A guy who was an engineer at Rockwell (now an MIT professor) said he he had to log every 6 minute interval into one of his accepted work categories.

"now, anyone wants to argue with a
straight face that the above applies
to the guy in the hardhat punching
the time clock in the Moveon ad?"

Earth to Patrick: lawyers are
paid to tell assorted things with a
straight face.

Back to Hastert. Good, old trooper with
a very small brain. If he felt genuinely
uneasy with the numbers that were
"different where they added them up",
what would be simpler than to delay the
vote on the measure until the respective
committee gets the testimony of whoever
should know the numbers and is not a
political appointee. Similarly, he has
the power to raise such a stink about
mistreatment of whisleblowers that no
public threat should be necessary.

Hastert may pass Turing test, but he
talks like a battered wife (grumbling at
times, but standing behind her man,
black eye and all, and, by Lord, how can
you pick on the grammar of a poor creature
that is smacked on her head daily), not
one of the most powerful people in the
land.

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Fluctuat nec mergitur - It is tossed by the waves but it does not sink

Venienti occurrite morbo - Meet the misfortune as it comes. (Persius)

Abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit - He has left, absconded, escaped and disappeared

Vice versa - In reverse