The Economist tells us that we are surrounded by robots:
Posted by DeLong at March 13, 2004 04:22 PM | TrackBack | | Other weblogs commenting on this postEconomist.com | Technology: The dream of a future in which robotic helpers would banish drudgery emerged in the mid-20th century and has persisted ever since (see article). After a recent surge in sales of robot vacuum cleaners, optimism has been growing that the long-awaited market for domestic robots might be about to take off. Yet domestic robots are in fact already widespread, from dishwashers to washing machines to coffee-makers. Such devices are not regarded as robots, however, since they fail to conform to the general-purpose humanoid format originally predicted by robot visionaries. But with two robots exploring Mars, growing sales of industrial robots and a military robot race about to start in the Mojave desert, it is clear that the technology is doing well—just not in the way the visionaries imagined.
Something similar is going on in the field of nanotechnology. The first products based on novel, atomic-level manufacturing techniques are now heading towards the market. But they do not conform to the original vision of tiny self-replicating machines, familiar from science-fiction films and novels, that was sketched out by the most famous nanotech guru, Eric Drexler. Just because it is developing in unexpected ways does not mean nanotechnology has failed, however.
Dr. DeLong,
Just as our economy experiences one paradigm shift we see yet another on the horizon. Now workers won't be replaced by low paid overseas Hindus, but by no paid nanites.
This whole thing could be stopped by a command economy. Or the nanite version of Smoot-Hawley. Or we could suffer yet another level of lower educated workers losing jobs. But at some point the machines become as smart, and as efficient, as we are.
What happens then? Maybe someone at Paramount's Star Trek Department can tell us how they dealt with the extinction of the Worker Class when Transporters and Replicators became popular?
Need a new aircar? "Pay the man, honey, while I watch the technician activate the Replicator."
QM
Why would we want to abolish nanites? If we had a command economy I'd rather have the robot/nanite/whatever do my job while I stay home and collect the paycheck.
I'm a worried about what will happen to workers in a free-market, non-command economy, if drudge work is taken over by machines. I'd like to see people collect paychecks for nothing, but they're just as likely to starve in the streets.
Posted by: rps on March 13, 2004 05:25 PM"Why would we want to abolish nanites? If we had a command economy I'd rather have the robot/nanite/whatever do my job while I stay home and collect the paycheck."
::blink::
Proving Bakunin correct:/
See John Ringo's "There Will Be Dragons" about what happens when people like you suddenly lose their nanite paycheck.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743471644/qid=1079229115/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8550864-5907924?v=glance&s=books
That being said, I'm no Luddite. I _am_ suggesting that the economy will undergo changes based on new technological revolutions. Seen any Buggy Whip Makers lately? So sad, and they used to have such a strong union too.
QM
Posted by: Jody Dorsett on March 13, 2004 05:57 PMBut, but, former software engineers will work for less than it costs to purchase and maintain any of these gizmos. Right?
Posted by: richard on March 13, 2004 06:40 PMJody makes an excellent point about paradigms. When Rossum's Universal Robots become a reality, the "productivity problem" even now plaguing our employment situation will become a structural part of our economy.
Will we continue to find new careers for people replaced by machines? If you look at the last century or so, we've done a pretty good job of doing just that. How many people are working at jobs today that did not even exist thirty years ago?
Or will an ever-more productive minority support an ever-growing unemployed welfare class, out of sheer self-protection if nothing else? The division that, in Wells' book, led to Morlocks and Eloi?
Posted by: tbrosz on March 13, 2004 09:59 PMI vote for the Morlocks and Eloi scenario. When Walmart employs greeter robots and hamburger flipping robots serve Big Macs we are going to have a lot of folks with a lot of time on their hands. Soma, anyone?
Posted by: non economist on March 13, 2004 11:39 PMHas anyone else read the SF of Australia's George Turner? His last four novels were based in a near future Australia where unemployment - due primarily to technological advances and automation - is at a 80-90% level worldwide. This is coupled with catastrophic global warming, the various environmental and political effects of a world-wide 9-10 billion human population, and global financial collapses.
My favorite book by him is Brain Child, which is a noirish detective morality tale of human genetic-enginering experimentation. Turner never caught on in the US, and Brain Child is out of print here, but his view of the future is realistic and believable, and lately I've been thinking about his vision of our world future A LOT. I recommend him highly...I just finished "The Drowning Towers" which, i believe, won an Arthur C Clarke award and was the first in this bleak series. Set largely around 2050, the employed (the "sweet") comprise an uneasy and fearful overclass alligned with a kind of social-fascist state and set against the unemployed masses (the "swill"), who survive on government handouts and neglect in enormous housing projects flooded by sewage and the ever-rising sea. Anyway.
Posted by: tecla on March 14, 2004 01:27 AMThe possibility of pandemic technological unemployment really would seem to put a lot of pressure on the way economics deals with human beings. People show up in economics mostly as people who own and exchange property, with worktime being a form of property to be exchanged. Since for most people their labor power is their only significant property*, once their labor isn't needed they essentially have no valid call on anyone else's property, and should just go die. Of course you can multiply personal-service type jobs, but it would seem that there would be a limit to the demand for that. So you'd have to say at that point that people have some intrinsic value as such, regardless of whether they're productive or capable of being productive or whether they own any property at all. But it seems that the whole science of economics, at least during the last century or more, has stubbornly refused to assign any value to propertless, unproductive human units, who are reduced to depending either on voluntary charity ot else welfare payments extracted violently from honest citizenm by the predatory, parasitical State.
Posted by: Zizka on March 14, 2004 11:16 AM*Forgot my footnote: a lot of people talk about how everyone is a property-owner in our "ownership society", but you'd have to be pretty wealthy for your wealth to surpass your future earnings in value. I've argued here in the past that a lot of people vastly overestimate the value of their wealth (especially stocks and bonds) vs. the value of their future earnings, their expected pensions, their fringe benefits, and various social amenities such as safe neighborhoods and good schools. My guess is that someone would have to have a net worth of between half a million and a million in order to maintain an upper-middle-class lifestyle without working and without depending on government (e.g. for the children's education).
I've actually asked for a more expert estimate more than once, but no takers.
Posted by: Zizka on March 14, 2004 11:22 AM...you know, Zizka, I think you in particular would like Brain Child (assuming you like SF). They probably have a few used copies over at Powells.
Posted by: tecla on March 14, 2004 11:30 AMYeah, nano my ass.
What we got nano- were stain treated trousers that you can't wash because they repel the wash water, and nano- fiber ropes that aren't much stronger than polyester, and a whole lot of people who sunk a whole lot of real life savings into a very nano ROI.
Nano is still very much "of the lab", in nano- dot biochem molecule sensors and nano-cantilever molecule weighers, but precious little else of real utility, day to commuting day.
All that robots did for the average American is depress their wages by automating most of their labor functions and make their work week one of unending drudgery, fovial blindness and lower back blowout from staring at a blinking computer.
Now, when they invent hard-armor hydraulic-muscle body-suits with nuclear power units that don't need to be plugged in every 30 minutes, and full hover ability, THAT will be cool!
Then we can hover over the graveyard of earth, looking for little bits of green to digi-cam.
"Nano-ecology", a new university study of last undisturbed unalterably destroyed environments.
The nano- solution is obvious. Employ DARPA satellites and super-computers to render the entire earth's surface in 3D, burn that into a nano-chip implanted in our forebrains, then anytime you want to take a break from your work station, just push the membrane switch on your temple and slip into their holodeck reality.
Or, completely alter our focus from in- to out-. Let the machine go. Slip into a cool green suit.
Now go outside and blow the stink off you.
Actually, Eric Drexler was quite clear, even back in the 80s, that crap like stain-resistant nano-pants would come first, before self-replicating nano-bots. You've got to have the precision to create textiles at that level before you've got the precision to make things with moving parts at that level. This writer is just trying to force an analogy, and distorting science in doing so. It's not that nano-tech didn't and won't achieve what its envisioners foresaw, just that such things take TIME. It's like looking at the sky at 5:30 am and saying "Wow, that whole sun thing is overrated. It's not THAT bright. And really. Yellow? Looks orange to me. Hmm. That would be a good column. I can make some general point about how nothing ever goes to plan!"
Posted by: Jon Rubin on March 14, 2004 02:10 PMSA...you should write Cyber-Punk. You have a gift. But the body-suits won't be hydraulic. Too much mass.
They will be..hmmm...think of bundles of itty bitty tubes with itty bitty rods going through them all acting like servos. the Action being done by super-conductor magnets controlled locally by nanites. Replication of the animal muscle system.
Which is exactly what DARPA is working on now. But read it first in Mil-SF! Preferably by Baen. (Shameless plug...http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200401/074347175X.htm?blurb )
Sorry, Brad!
QM
Posted by: Jody Dorsett on March 14, 2004 06:55 PMS A
Thank you for your skepticism ( nano my ass) and of course, your poetry.
I, too, think the nano technology is (too?) heavily marketed.
But we are desperate,no?
Something, somewhere to lift us out of the doldromes. Get people back to work; get people interested and excited about the future;
Anything.
Well...almost anything: this ain't for me: "hard-armor hydraulic-muscle body-suits with nuclear power units" (Buck Rogers, I aint).
But we are definitely vulnerable to the New New thing at this point. So I would scrutinize any investment plans you may have in 'body-suits'.
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