April 20, 2004

George W. Bush, Heretic

Patrick Nielsen Hayden bangs his head against the wall as he considers George W. Bush's apparent belief (or, at least, the belief of his speechwriters that it would be a cool thing to have him say) that our enemies have no souls:

Electrolite: George W. Bush, theologian.: “We will never show weakness in the face of these people who have no soul.” A question for Electrolite’s commenters. Is there actually any strain or denomination of Christianity in which some people are considered to “have no soul”? No, I didn’t think so either.... Let’s all hold our breaths waiting for the people who’ve been slamming pro-choice John Kerry for being a “bad Catholic” to spend just as much energy on this particular point of doctrine....

Jo Walton ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2004, 01:13 PM: No argument on your main point, and it's not certainly not official Christian doctrine, but there was a debate about whether fairies and merpeople had souls, ended pretty emphatically by Aquinas saying that if someone presented him with either, he'd then deal with the soul issue. Those people who believed that the Angevins were descended from Melusine, the daughter of Satan, (or who just didn't like them and wanted ammunition for abuse) certainly threw their supposedly questionable soul status at them during the twelfth century. (Poul Anderson dealt with this soul stuff absolutely brilliantly in more than one short story collected in his fantasy collection and in _The Merman's Children_ and in _The Broken Sword_.)

What Bush means, I suspect, is that they are not, in his eyes, people. Not real people, not human in the way he is. This is a very dangerous, as well as stupid, belief to hold about anyone, because it loses the possibility of your managing to understand why they are doing what they are doing. He should go to see the fascinating documentary _The Fog of War_ and hear Robert MacNamara explaining how they managed to avert global thermonuclear war at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis by understanding the enemy.

I can imagine bumper stickers saying "I have a soul, and I vote!"

People who have no souls? Actually John 8:41-45 is pretty close, with its claim that there are people who are not Children of God:

Then said they to [Jesus], "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said unto them, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not..."

Posted by DeLong at April 20, 2004 12:13 PM | TrackBack | | Other weblogs commenting on this post
Comments

And our theologian (?) friend Adrian has deduced that "most" lefties believe people have no souls... how? Was there a Zogby poll on this I missed? Did I miss a segment of Hardball last night that discussed this?

Posted by: Jon on April 20, 2004 12:39 PM

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Hi Adrian, I am a leftie and I am religious, and I believe everone has a soul, and that mortals have no business trying to judge whether human's soul is evil or not (not even Hitler's).

I think the quote is a figure of speech. Bush Jr. probably believes everyone has a soul. I read a story where he was arguing with his mother about whether everyone who was not a "born again" Christian would go to hell. Supposedly they got on the phone with a Mr. B. Graham who told Bush Jr. not to try to know things he could not know. So if there is a grain of truth to this story, I suspect Bush Jr. believes all human's have souls.

But what a nasty figure of speech! I don't like that way of thinking, and if it was one of those very carefully planned PR figures of speech, it is nasty. Is this pandering to the extreme religious right? And what does it say abot Bush Jr's faith that he would be so self-righteous to make such an off the cuff remark, or read such a nasty, but consciouly planned phrase. The blog should provide some context for the quote, but it does not.

The Prof's example from Gospel of John is not convincing. In that passage it is not clear to whom Jesus is speaking. Audience in previous verses were Jewish sympathizers who were not sure they could follow him -a relatively sympathetic group, given the environment. It is not clear whether Jesus is suddenly addressing a different section of the audience that is more hostile or the same group. The references to relatives of Satan, and being children of Satan, are probably emphatic ways of making categories, not to be taken literally. At least that is what commentaries say that I have read. And that would make sense, if in fact Jesus was still talking with an audience that was sympathetic but still trying to decide whether to become, but currently refusing to be, overt supporters.

Posted by: jml on April 20, 2004 12:46 PM

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Adrian, when a person says that another has no soul, it's not usually a theological statement, but rather a moral one. The speaker is saying that the other person is subhuman and can be killed or abused without consequence or consideration. There is a long and very nasty history associated with that particular philosophical belief and rather than risk getting called for Godwin's Law, I'll leave it at that.

It isn't the question of whether people have souls or not which bothers "Democrats" but rather that this is just another in the long line of scary ideas that keep cropping up in Bush's speeches. This isn't nitpicking. Nitpicking is to quibble over whether it matters whether Democrats generally believe people have souls.

Posted by: Patrick Taylor on April 20, 2004 12:46 PM

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Perhaps Adrian has never heard of Liveration Theology.

Posted by: Steven Rogers on April 20, 2004 12:46 PM

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Maybe Adrian has no soul, thus her intense hatred?

Posted by: Neo-Troll on April 20, 2004 12:46 PM

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Patrick Taylor makes a good point. Out of context you don't know whether the statement was theological, or moral, or simply a way of expressing extreme disapproval. Still, Presidents who claim to be good Christians shouldn't talk that way (said in my best Ms. Manners tone).

Posted by: jml on April 20, 2004 12:49 PM

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To the person who accuses us "lefties" of nit-picking: The "soul" is a pretty universal concept. Even crazy leftist Lisa Simpson talks about the soul. In "The Rainbow," D.H. Lawrence (a wicked, soulless homosexual!) portrays scientists who deny the existence of a soul as evil.

In other words, this ain't nit-picking. This is pointing out that Bush used a phrase that runs contrary to all of Judeo-Christian tradition... and one which implies that he views his adversaries as less than human.

If we think of Iraqis as people and he thinks of them as meat, isn't that an important distinction to report?

Cheers,
Marc

Posted by: Whopundit on April 20, 2004 12:50 PM

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"The references to relatives of Satan, and being children of Satan, are probably emphatic ways of making categories, not to be taken literally. At least that is what commentaries say that I have read. And that would make sense, if in fact Jesus was still talking with an audience that was sympathetic but still trying to decide whether to become, but currently refusing to be, overt supporters.

Posted by jml"

Could this explain W's usage?

Adrian

Posted by: Adrian Spidle on April 20, 2004 12:51 PM

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Don't feed the trolls, people.

Posted by: vsa on April 20, 2004 01:03 PM

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I liked Whopundit's take:

If Bush were a Democrat, you could argue that he's merely declaiming against the jihadists' aversion to the music of James Brown and Sam Cooke. But by that standard, Bush has no soul, either.

Ow, I feel good. So good. So good.

There are also echoes of the 16th century debate between Bartholome de las Casas and Juan Gines de Sepulveda over whether the Indians in the New World had souls. The question was decided in the affirmative by the Pope. Maybe we should let Bush know?

Posted by: Gabriel on April 20, 2004 01:09 PM

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And exactly what, pray tell, does the issues of whether Hitler have a soul, or whether it's evil or not, have to do with whether to declare war on a country?

Sheeesh!

Even Buddhists understand that, and they are much more pacifist than most Christians.

Ridiculous comment by Spidle.

Posted by: girlie man of the left on April 20, 2004 01:10 PM

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Oh come now! Clearly he meant "these people" (them, Middle-Easterners, Iraqis) "have no soul [BROTHERS]". It was an obvious reference to music and food. He's just saying, as we all could; "Where's the Iraqi James Brown?" "Has anyone ever heard of a Palestinian version of Elvis?" "Do they even know what a Black-eyed pea is in Damascus?"

My man W got soul. He play sax like Brother Bill, (except for the playing sax part, and the Brother part.)

Groove on.

Posted by: dennisS on April 20, 2004 01:15 PM

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I believe it was Robert Plant who first opined that "Big-legged women ain't got no soul" (or so he was told).

I suppose that BLWs would fall into the larger category of "Evil-Doers", and therefore support GWB's contention?.....who knew he was a Zep fan?

Posted by: The Spoiler on April 20, 2004 01:21 PM

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I think I completely misunderstood this post. Gabriel, DennisS and Spoiler have it right. A little dose of Funkadelic all around will fix up all the trouble, and there'll be no more no soul talk anywhere anyhow.

Posted by: jml on April 20, 2004 01:25 PM

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I think he was just trying to urge Muslims to
"Free the James Brown within!"

Living in America ...

Posted by: Gabriel on April 20, 2004 01:37 PM

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I always thought the figure of speech of "having no soul" meant having no morals, or no means of judging oneself. For instance, a serial killer might be considered as a person with no soul because he can't see that he is doing something wrong.

Posted by: pol on April 20, 2004 02:09 PM

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Bush is good for a few laughs but eventually the serious issues come back.

It was a very bizarre thing for anyone to say let alone the President of the United States. He was either off-script or the script-writers should be fired. Since it's completely within his character I assume the former which brings us back to the jokes. How else to cope when our leader is marching us back to the 19th century?

Sorry jml. I deFunkified. I'm getting my Wilson Pickett out right now.

Posted by: dennisS on April 20, 2004 02:10 PM

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Take each of (all of these)pronouncements, directives, seeming musings,disjointed meanderings, babbling press conferences, etc, ad nauseum - look at them as a whole instead of each separate part. Our Preznit is just 2 wings short of a fruit fly. Historically I am sure we have precedent. The question is what to do now?

Posted by: nancy berry on April 20, 2004 02:31 PM

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Perhaps Dear Leader is thinking about these kind of zombies when he refers to "these people who have no soul [...]" but I rather doubt it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie#Zombies_in_philosophy

Posted by: s9 on April 20, 2004 02:32 PM

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As a soulless leftist I must bemoan this country's shortage of soulless leftists. Everybody's got a god or some new agey inner being, but James Brown ought to be enough soul for anybody.

Posted by: buermann on April 20, 2004 02:41 PM

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[Seger]
"Today's insurgents ain't got the same soul,
I love that old-time shock and awe."
[/Seger]

Yeah, I know it doesn't rhyme. So? :D

Posted by: RT on April 20, 2004 02:45 PM

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Why do people think that there is no such thing as a soul, when "soul" is a perfectly good word, which has its uses, but they think there is such a thing as mind, which is also a perfectly good word, which has its uses? The truth of the matter is that there is no such *thing* as a soul or a mind, but the use of such words operates primarily attributively. This makes me think that rather than regressing to some sort of archaic theological dogmatism with possible heretical implications, George W. Bush is succumbing to a dangerously dissociated form of skepticism.

Posted by: john c. halasz on April 20, 2004 03:20 PM

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I don't believe I have a soul, the whole idea of people having "Souls"is so ridiculous, how can any thinking person believe it!

Posted by: big al on April 20, 2004 03:24 PM

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Well, certain organizations have longed preached that their version of Christianity proves that some people don't have souls. The Klu Klan Klan for instance.

Posted by: ccobb on April 20, 2004 03:43 PM

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That's because someone other has got your soul, Big Al.

Posted by: john c. halasz on April 20, 2004 04:11 PM

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big al: "have a soul" is a figure of speech. Buddhists don't even believe in mind-body duality. But in sermons, I have heard priests use the world soul as a figure speech for teaching purposes. You have to be a rather unthinking Christian to think that you have a soul that is come kind of Casper the Ghost thing and whisps out of your body when you die. If you believe in mind-body duality you are just as confused, whether religious or not.
halasz: huh?

Another thing occurred to me this afternoon (while in a very boring meeting): Many commentators believe that this book had important liturgical purposes. Portions were read in sequence over several meetings that preceded whatever early sacraments existed (communion and, maybe, baptism). Worshippers would hear the book before they reconfirmed their faith for confirmed it for the first time. This would explain why there are overtly liturgical passages, hymns, and inserted commentaries in the text. The words were meant to apply to the congregation or initiates in their spiritual preparation for the sacraments, as well as give a history of Jesus' teachings and life. If that is the case, the many of the passages are meant to be taken figuratively. This would include terms like children of the light, and of the darkness, and of Satan, etc. The language was meant to apply to the worshippers' spiritual state.

But maybe Prof D has become a closet super fundamentalist, and just opened his AV and pointed at random to find God's personal revelation of truth. If so, good luck, Prof D!But, unless that's the case, the passage doesn't say anything about certain types of people not having souls.

But I forgot. What this is all about is that Bush was saying that the whole world gotta get down with it and get down. RB and funkafushion will unite us in a funkadise of RB-funka-souldom for all. That is the real point of this thread and we should all be going home to listen to Funkadelic or J Brown or Sonny Boy or Wilson or whatever. Personally, I think Bush had Sonny Boy Williamson II in mind. Sonny Boy II had a lot of religious and otherwise soul related teachings in his songs ("No matter where you go or what you do, remember people, that unseen eye is always watchin' you.") And I guess Bush and Sonny Boy II early lives have a lot in common.

Posted by: jml on April 20, 2004 05:07 PM

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DennisS clearly has soul. He completely lifted the tenor of this thread after a dismal start (thanks to Adrian). Hallelujah Dennis!! Or should I say, "Get down"!!

Posted by: Dubblblind on April 20, 2004 07:01 PM

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Suppose I've sold my soul in a garage sale. I'm pretty sure it's still intact, but I really don't have any contact with the new owners of the soul, and for all I know their dog might have knocked it over and shattered it into a million pieces. Do I still count as have a soul?

Posted by: Julian Elson on April 20, 2004 07:13 PM

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jml:

O.K. I'll take a bite at the definition of "soul". One's "soul" is one's existential exposure to the otherness of others, in the primordial exteriority of one's being, which is the condition for having an "interior" self at all. But that is just to restate the condition of language, which, for human beings, is inerradicable. But, at least, such a definition might serve to indicate why human beings are strangely tempted to use soul talk.

But then Big Al's "thinking person" is just as much of a highly attributive notion.

Posted by: john c. halasz on April 20, 2004 08:00 PM

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john halasz: What you are getting at is a little clearer now. Thanks.

Julian Elson: That is a trick question. Souls are both infungible and dog-proof. Everyone knows they are dog-proof. Give me a break.

Posted by: jml on April 20, 2004 09:07 PM

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Philip Pullman writes about creatures that have no souls such as animals and witches. In his writings, when humans are seperated from their souls, it is very painful and then they die. Of course, The Amber Spyglass is fiction and not religion.

Posted by: bakho on April 20, 2004 10:08 PM

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That unseeen eye, remind me of of mindnight dream,
That unseeen eye, remind me of of mindnight dream,
It remind me of somebody I haven't ever seen.

Boys, you better be careful in what you say or do,
Better be careful, boys, in what you say or do,
That unseen eye just keep on watching you.

I don't care where you go or what you do,
Don't care where you go and what you do,
That unseen eye will be always watching you.

Seems like you don't care about what you say,
Seems like you don't care about the places you go,
But that unseen eye is watching you.

Sonny Boy Williams II, Unseen Eye


Posted by: jml on April 20, 2004 10:53 PM

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Okay fellas. This is all good clean fun. But it's pretty clear in context that President Dyslexia said "soul" when he meant "conscience." (He says "conscience" earlier in the speech.)

It's a practical mistake rather than a theological one, and much more consequential. More on this at:

http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/terrorism_and_its_control_/2004/04/the_first_suicide_bomber.php

Posted by: Mark Kleiman on April 21, 2004 01:13 AM

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Actually, he referred to souls four other times in the speech, all in reference to a wonderful thing that americans have because we're all tight with God.

Posted by: julia on April 21, 2004 04:14 AM

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Obviously a soul exists. In fact it is apparently fungible. Haven't you all seen "Damn Yankees", "Pulp Fiction" or "OH! Brother Where Art Thou?" (to name a few)? And I thought leftists were so smart!

Posted by: Repoman on April 21, 2004 05:44 AM

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"Actually John 8:41-45 is pretty close, with its claim that there are people who are not Children of God...."

No, no, no, no, NO NO NO. No!!!

Speaking as someone trained in theology: When I read something like this (an economist writing about biblical interpretation), I realize how utterly uneducated my random thoughts on economics probably are. And how stupid and wrong I would sound if I pontificated about it. I'd probably get GDP mixed up with GNP, or interest rates with discount rates. That's about how wrong this idea about John is.

The "Children of God" language in John has nothing whatever to do with the possession of a soul. Just zip. It's a totally different issue. John is not interested in whether people have souls or not; he's interested in whether people have responded rightly to Jesus or not. John's is a very dualistic, almost gnostic viewpoint, yes. But the dualism does not have anything to do with souls.

I could get into this further, but nobody would be much interested, so I'll skip it.

Posted by: Kent on April 21, 2004 08:42 AM

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bakho
"The Amber Spyglass is fiction and not religion"
Pullman has C.S. Lewis-envy. not religion? more like anti-religion.

Posted by: Narnia on April 22, 2004 05:49 AM

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All humans have a soul.

All humans whilst waiting to die have a soul and a spirit body which clothes and gives life to their soul.

Jesus Christ at death had his powerful living spirit body, his ghost, removed by the Spirit of God. and at that moment his soul was taken down to Paradise, that is now Hades. (Hell is lower down).

Jesus, that is his soul, descended down into a prison in Hades where he preached, and on the the third day, many left Hades for Heaven.

It was the spirit of God that went down into Hades and gave Jesus back his spirit body, and so Jesus, now with spirit and soul went up into the Throne Room of Heaven and was made Whole, that is Holy.

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