Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)

In all honesty, the very first rational thought i had after this story broke in the first place was: they must have been getting desperate to find some WMDs.

I didn't specifically apply that thought to the scientists we've never seen again, but i realize now, i should have....

If the following is true, it is just the kind of atrocity that the US used to justify the invasion and regime change in the first place. If the following is true, the US became completely morally bankrupt in its dealings with the Iraqi people.

'There is a later stage, after the SAP has been expanded in Iraq to "cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streets"'

Why isn't anybody in the House drafting articles of impeachment?

Anybody who is trying to rationalize in their own minds how the abuse of prisoners documented in these images can be compatible with any kind of ethical conduct needs to make sure they see the pictures the Pentagon released today showing "inappropriate behavior with a corpse" and think long and hard about the other pictures we have seen before today.

If they were at the stage where they could beat someone to death and pose for a grinning picture next to the corpse, how do you know they haven't yet sunk to the level where they are spiking the water with heavy doses of psychoactive drugs before starting in on the "overwhelming fear" approach to softening up the interrogation subjects.

We *do* remember all those trial balloons from last year and the year before to see how the public would react to the employment of drug torture techniques, and we remember the press pretty much ignored any of us who were protesting the idea. We should also point out that the list of people who have come forward as whistleblowers does *not* include any of the physicians or medical support staff. Is anyone curious about that?

Far too early for conclusions. The search for WMD's is ongoing, and our fearless leader has said he can't wait to hear the truth as to what happened to him. Therefore we must abuse scientists in order to extract that precious information they are doing so well to conceal. Hussein was a threat, the world is better off, rinse repeat....

I love the "either your are for this sort of thing or your against it" framing. My compliments.

Quit cackling you nitwits. They need to torture these fucks to get all kinds of valuable information, so let them. War is war, and torture works. I laugh at the disingenuousness of this idiot proposing that it doesn't, and his totally irrelevant examples. I agree it is repugnant. So what? War is repugnant and yet who can get rid of it? We're living in the world that we've found. You don't like it? I don't either. Now what? It's still what it is.

Yeah, Die Wahr, naturally that explains why we signed the Geneva Accords in the first place, and obeyed them even in the handling of japanese prisoners at a time when Japan wass ignroing them for ours. After all, who cares what the other side does to YOUR POWs in return, or whether you need to persuade the other side not to hate your guts at some point after the war's over?

Where do some of the people who shamble onto this website come from? You never see them out in the daytime.

Incidentally, while we're talking about denizens of the abyss, I thought you might get a kick out of Mark Steyn's comparison -- three days ago -- of the torture to "a Paris Hilton party".

Yesterday he was announcing that he was still totally unconcerned about it because "there has been no complaint about it at all from the Kurds or Shiites". Exactly why he'd think that, given the fact that many of the Kurdish and Shiite members of the IGC raised screaming hell about what we did in Fallujah -- with several resigning over it -- is a bit of a mystery, but then the whole fact that Steyn is frequently declared to be one of conservative journalism's brightest young stars is a bit of a mystery.

When you begin by torturing the truth, you will eventually torture for the truth. The alternative is accepting that you were wrong.

Note, for example, the Army's insistence that the Fallujah insurgency involved large numbers of foreign fighters - a claim that has been unsupported by any actual evidence. Imagine the chagrin of Military Intelligence when detainees stubbornly refused to corroborate this; imagine their glee when the same detainees were persuaded to change their testimony.

"but then the whole fact that Steyn is frequently declared to be one of conservative journalism's brightest young stars is a bit of a mystery."

Posted by Bruce Moomaw at May 20, 2004 03:35 AM

Because he is? Not because he's worth a d*mn, but because that's what passes for conservative journalism.

I'd like to emphasize that this says something about WMD stockpiles, programs and factories - the administration hasn't found them yet. Even though they're certainly torturing anybody who might know. And as mentioned in Jim Henley's article, some scientists did turn themselves in (IIRC, the administration was offering clemency for information).

I wonder what Mr. Johnson might have to say about the latest Abu Ghraib pictures, in which American soldiers pose grinning broadly and giving the "thumbs up" sign over the bloodied corpse of a detainee who had just been beaten to death in the showers.

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/05/prof_delong_con.html

The people who speak so glibly about abuse of prisoners need to spend at least one night in jail so they understand the situation. Once that metal door slams behind you, you are totally in control of the jailers. They determine when you eat, when you walk around, who can visit, which other prisoners have access to you and almost all facets of your life.

Mistreatment of people who are "under control" of others is rampant even without the added control of locking people in the jail. Junior high gangs, high school sports hazings and fraternity hazings have all made the news in the US for getting out of hand with even less control over the victims than the Iraq prison. The Stanford experiment demonstrates how quickly untrained people will abuse their prisoners.

Inmates in US jails have some legal recourse against abuse and visitations by lawyers and family that can speak out against maltreatment. Take away the lawyers, any legal recourse and even the few rights that American prisoners have and suddenly there are no checks on the system. Add to that, poorly trained soldiers who did not sign up to be jailers, who desperately want to return home to their lives, who resent being kept beyond the time promised and their frustrations are likely to be vented on their prisoners. The administration created a situation that required strong institutional controls. They put untrained personnel in a situation with almost no institutional controls at all.

The pattern in Iraq is of an administration that takes too many short cuts that undermine their progress politically. In Iraq, our politicians have failed our military.

When I first saw the name "Paul Johnson" I immediately thought of the popular British historian and 'david' in the comments on the original post at The Road to Surfdom [at: david on May 19, 2004 12:43 PM] spots the joke in 'PJ' s post - "public school" is the tip-off.
....
"I would expect that the Johnson comment was joke at the expense of British pop historian (and Newt Gingrich idol) Paul Johnson, now notorious for enjoying a good spanking at the hands of his lady friends. Christopher Hitchens wrote a very funny article about Johnson a while back."

Time for a letter writing campaign about the scientists. I'm not sure who the best targets are, maybe congress.

The Onion has an excellent companion piece to today's reports:

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4020&n=1

At least the Bush regime is good for satirists.

Loved the Onion's piece. Satire is a dark form of humor and this topic suits its devices rather well. I believe there was one remark from Cheney on the tape that did not make it into the Onion's coverage however.

"Their failure to confess only confirms their guilt."

TORTURE COVER-UP FOR JESUS, SEEN THROUGH LENSES OF GREED. --By O. G. Whotaschnozzle, primaty corespondent frum Bighdud, Irokq. Dateline: May 20, who cares. Begin tranxmission: “Today, everything went further into Hell. Apocalypse is nigh, we defend by killing. There wuz torture and then there wuzn’t--am not looking. (Believe you me, when I say I can’t look.) Intends to transfer nothing on June twentysomething, who cares. Maybe the U.N. will pull us out. And sprinkle your ass with perfume! Please Dad put half the budget into homeland spying, because there’s fucking bullseyes painted EVERYWHERE. Love to Mum while you still can...

[CUT]

We soddenly intorrupt this storture for a cortsmmarcial: BUY ‘Torture Story’ the new CD. Buy it now! It’s only audial, but it’s anal! DVD a’comin’ soon! People say: “I LOVE ‘Torture Story’! It made me puke into a big bucket--that’s the most emotion I’ve had since me old monthlies!” -- Helena Godvoter, retired skristian skrule skreecher, Porkfat, Wyoming. ...Yes kids, you too can spend money to feel larger! Kill all monsters, get big prizes! Get Torture Story! On your screen now! “ Uh, ‘Torture Story’ was, like, uh thing, and ah bunsen burned it, and ah rolled it tight as uh flute, and ah stuck it up muh ass--IT CURED MUH FRIGGKIN’ HEMORRHOIDS!!” -- (signed) Williamrobert (“Billybob”) Burgerflipper, unretired tire-container maintainer, Dislocation, Ohio ...So get Torture Story! It’s less than you wanted, but more than you bargained for! Natural market price $19.99, plus shrieking and fondling, plus more attaxes where applied! --Not available in Sectors R and N!

[CUT]

We am now interviewing Theresa Smellsnitch, based outta Germburger, Hammoneggy, flowned in to Bagdhead to see what she could see... I caught up with her while she war talking to her lawyers. Was torture? --“Well, yah.” Did torture? --“Well maybe.” But any Badhdaggers murggered? --“Nnnnn.” From higher up? --(assume smirkyface: [I can finger somebody, so you better bet I’M safe, baby!] then into camera, after pause:) “Them piles of bodies was ALL DOWNHILL!”...

Two points of view I find increasingly repellant:

1. War is war, after all. "They" are out to get us. You think we're just adding to the mess? creating more war? Get over it!

2. This is no worse than what happens in our public school or fraternities. That just confirms for you that we're no better than they are? So what! That's war! Get over it!

I'm thinking of Robert Lifton and his theory that "doubling," a "Borderline Personality Disorder," makes possible the kind of rationalizations and disassociations producing the ability to behave with complete bestiality and then toodle on home to the kiddies not forgetting to pick up the dry cleaning on the way. Lifton was writing about Nazi death camps. Our national personality disorders are deepening to the point that we can get teary-eyed on the Fourth of July about our glorious and unique republic while lying to ourselves minute by minute about our chosen government's behaviors. I don't think comparisons of Americans with the citizens of Nazi Germany are outrageous. Painful, disconcerting -- yes. But not irrational.

Torture and abuse on the part of the US Military, SAP's et al. were also documented in Afghanistan. Cockburn's column on torture (5/31 Nation) widens the lens. Remember this?:

..."Jamie Doran, a British television producer, aired his documentary establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that hundreds of these prisoners--with no distinction between Taliban and foreign fighters--died either by suffocation in the container trucks used to transport them to prison, or by outright execution.
"On the basis of interviews with eyewitnesses, Doran said US soldiers were present when the containers were opened, and that 'a mess of urine, blood, faeces, vomit and rotting flesh was all that remained.... As the containers were lined up outside the prison, a [US] soldier accompanying the convoy was present when the prison commanders received orders to dispose of the evidence quickly.'- Newsweek's investigation into the Afghan atrocities said, 'American forces were working intimately with 'allies' who committed what could well qualify as war crimes.'"
"Witnesses also stated that '600 Taliban PoWs...were taken to a spot in the desert and executed in the presence of about 30 to 40 U.S. special forces soldiers' (Toronto Globe and Mail, December 19, 2002). Other US soldiers are said to have been directly involved in prisoner torture and disposal of corpses. 'The Americans did whatever they wanted,' said one Afghan witness. 'We had no power to stop them. Everything was under the control of the American commander.'"...

Cockburn goes on to detail the efforts of the Red Cross to report these abuses -- efforts which included direct contact with Powell and Wolfowitz and Rice from spring 2003 onward and writes: "What's clear enough is that the quality of US leadership from the very top down, both civilian and military, is rancid."

There is now a report out that soldiers tortured a 16 year-old boy in front of his father to make Dad talk. Details are lacking, but I would imagine that it was part of the effort to find Saddam. It looks as though much (possibly not all) of the torture was not related to tactical concerns, but rather to finding evidence to justify the invasion. The level of criminality here is unbelievable. This is what you get when you adopt the ends justifies the means -- and of course, let us not forget that we never were given (and haven't been given) a truthful account of what the actual ends were.

Death in military custody

One usually thinks of torture as being the staple of latin-american dictatorships -- Surely the idea of an investigation of the kind the US is pursuing in Iraq would never pass through the heads of latin american generals. True. But let it be noted, that one significant event in the history of Brazilian politics towards the end the dicatorship was the death of journalist Vladimir Herzog under custody of the second army based in Sao Paulo. That event, i.e. the murder of a nice middle class journalist was not supposed to happen,

Below is a link to description of the event; Highlights: He was found hung in a prison cell on 24 oct 1975; official version was suicide. In the opinion of Henry Sobel (see link below), Herzog's assasination changed the country. In 1977, a judged determined the military authorities were responsible for his death. That year 1977 "a coup within a coup" within Brazil (no fighting just military vehicles moving around, in particular prominent displays of military traffic on the Rio-Niteroi bridge) hastened the withdrawal of the military from Brazilian politics. Nonetheless the withdrawal rom politics still took many years, and didn't fully happen until the early 1980's

http://www.resgatehistorico.com.br/doc_05.htm

A lot of commentators on this site do not understand that this whole problem starts at home with presidents who prefer not to stand up against death penalty and a widely accepted imprisoning culture (3 strikes out).Speaking about human rights the US is aq little bit behind actually.

Torture and abuse of civilian detainees and POWs is certainly worth getting worked up about, but not hysterical. There is a downside to excessive preoccupation with this issue. The opposition interprets our hand wringing and self-flagellation as a sign of fear. And thinking we are fearful emboldens them to fight on prolonging the suffering for everyone. Torture and abuse of prisoners is routinely practiced by the Middle East Arab dictatorships, and revelations of such does not have the same shock value it has in the US. Our over-reaction only increases their reaction. Then there are those who try to add fuel to the fire by flinging reckless and false charges of new atrocities. And many people will now believe any charge they hear against the US no matter how fantastic. If all this causes the US make a premature withdrawal then the resulting civil war will prove far war then the mistreatment of prisoners.

Hans Suter:

Until very recently there were almost no federal capital crimes except for treason. And the numbers of traitors executed throughout the history of the US is close to zero. I think the Rosenbergs were the last ones. So it not surprising that virtually no president has taken a stand against capital punishment, it’s not a federal issue. It’s true that the US has a lot of people incarcerated. This is mainly a result of the so-called “war on drugs” where the punishment for petty drug offenses has gotten excessive. On the other hand, about 30% of the prison inmates in the US are foreigners, so the high rate of criminality for immigrants (both legal and illegal) also expands the inmate population. So if we stop immigration, we will have less people in jail, is this what you want? Or do you just not want to imprison criminals?

Is it naive to me to think that the excuse "We're at war and need to do these terrible things to win." loses any shred of ethical validity it might have when the SIDE THAT STARTED THE WAR tries to use it? I mean, there's something very strange about the whole discussion.

And yes, my implicit assumption here is that the US started the Iraq war by invading a sovereign nation. Iraq did not invade our territory. That much is clear. They had nothing to do with 9/11, and were not even guilty of what we accused them of, namely possessing militarily significant quantities of WMDs and continuing to pursue such programs.

Saddam is out now; we were supposedly never at war with the Iraqi people. So what exactly is this "war effort" that permits the US, the aggressor nation, to break all international standards of treating prisoners?

"This is a pretty typical response from some (by no means all) on the right, those who seek to dismiss the charges against US troops and others for prisoner abuse as something not worth getting worried about."

I concur this is a typical response and a hyprocritical one at that for most of those on the right. I'm very much annoyed knowing that, were Iraqis abusing American prisoners the same way, these people would be howling about the contravention of the Geneva accords. It's clear to me that these people put a much higher value on American lives than on Iraqi lives, despite the alledgely noble mission by the Bush administration to "liberate" them from their feudalistic overlord.

I detect in these comments from the right a reversion to a tribal sort of thinking ("our tribe is mightier and therefore superior in every regard to your tribe"). It would be difficult to deny that the US seems to be slumping further towards either a medieval or imperialist mindset.

Torture Story may be good for us in the long run, because if we handle it correctly, the other people in the world will see that we can be bad--just as bad as THEIR bad guys--but the difference is how we deal with it. You just can’t imagine Saddam letting scads of people go from jails... This is the sort of thing we should capitalize upon. That’s why THEY will WANT to be like US. We have to find wedges into the moderate Muslim community: people who are just as secular with their religion as many Christians and Jews are in the West. We do this by showing that we don’t always get it right--BUT we always try to do the right thing when we discover what’s wrong. Well, did certain politicians allow it? Then we throw ‘em out! This won’t be an immediate sale with everybody, nor should it be. But if we keep at it for a decade, moderates of other religions can find a way to BE, in peace.

Torture Story also gets us off our high horse. This will be most salutary to the American psyche. ...Although conservative Bushian privateers will feel it in their pocketbook.

Getting rid of Bush is a necessity for the furtherance of foreign policy. If the rest of the world doesn’t see that you can penalize bunglers, they will devalue the prospects for democracy in their own possible futures.

Actually, I recall reading about periodic mass releases by Saddam. I think that they were timed to coincide with religious holidays (e.g., 'look at the Mercy of Saddam!' propaganda).

As to how we're dealing with it - this came from the top. From Bush/Rumsfield/Ashcroft/Gonzales/
Feith/Wolfowitz/Cambrone (sp?)/Boykin/Miller. The administration was notified about it for months, and did nothing. After they finally did investigate, due to a whistle-blower, the response was to court-martial the lowest ranking half-dozen schmucks. The only reason it became public was because the schmucks had evidence, and released it.

The administration's response at that point was to deplore the fact that the pictures were released, and to put Gen. 'Gitmo' Miller in charge of the prisons of Iraq. I.e., fox guarding the henhouse. I have a feeling that the Iraqis will watch and learn. They just won't learn the lessons that the administration's propagandists would like them to learn.

So for all the torture, to have to be on the side of evil, and become the enemy, to lose ourselves and our self respect

WE GOT NOTHIN!!!

We didn't get Bin Laden, Bush passed on getting Zaqawi in N. Iraq, no WMD, still lots of terror, still no security, more death, US dead, coalition dead, Iraqi dead, goodbye Spain, goodbye Poland.
For such a high price to pay, a very poor return.

Barry--thanks for the correction. But still, they couldn't vote Saddam OUT. It's on us, now.

It is beginning to look like some historical variant of fascism: folkish tribalism, fierce devotion to the leader on the part of a large minority in the population, contempt for the inferior captives. Huey P. Long said that American fascism would march down Main St. decked out in red, white, and blue.

Those who say that torture is no big deal assume that they themselves would never be prisoners and that these nonwhite people in Iraqi jails are not fully human. Look at the ridiculous Sen. Inhofe, who said that they were all murderers, not people in jail for traffic offenses. In fact, some were Iraqi scientists whose help we need, some were minor criminals and some probably totally innocent. It's not the politicians who betrayed the military. Those who say this make a false distinction between military and political leaders. To prioritize, to decide what's best for others, to draw up budgets, these are political decisions. Colin Powell was a politician in GW I and he's a politician today (he'll never be able to justify his failure to object to the locos). Generals Sanchez and Abuzaid are politicians. It was they, not Arrogant Rumsfeld, who responded to the Red Cross complaints by prohibiting unannounced Red Cross visits. You do that when you know that you have something to hide. It's like the Boer War- the British won smashing victories but were bedeviled by constant guerrilla warfare which they didn't understand. Most of the British public loved the "gotta get tough with these bad guys" propaganda. Governments lie. The least we can do is try to keep ours from attacking other countries. Power corrupts, the US government has too much power, and the “balance of powers” is dead.

Is there any doubt now that guys like "Die Wahr", Tacitus, Instapundit, of course Rush, and the Wall Street Journal editorial page would condone, even encourage, the use of torture against U.S. citizen political opponents here? That's only about a half-step lower than where they currently are on the ladder down to a Pinochet-like regime. The "arguments" these guys, and guys like Inhofe, are using to excuse or cover-up the torture would be just as useful to justify the torture and execution of Markos, Atrios and other political opponents of our regime.

A. Zarkov: you have been defending the administration with various legalisms since I started following this site, which I think is perfectly reasonable given that most of us really respect the rule of law. Too bad the administration does not.

But who here is it that is getting all hand-wringing and hysterical? I see a lot of genuine fury and disgust with our government; both of which seem perfectly reasonable to me. I also see people who think this may be what it takes to get rid of these people. I also see people who could not care less what other people think about our outrageous behavior, because we have to fix ourselves no matter what they think.

Do you have a problem with any of those responses?

Can this "Paul Johnson" perhaps be none other than the legendary Paul "Spanker" Johnson?

http://www.salon.com/media/1998/05/28media.html

(From when Hitchens was good)

A Zharkov writes:
>>Then there are those who try to add fuel to the fire by flinging reckless and false charges of new atrocities. And many people will now believe any charge they hear against the US no matter how fantastic.<<

And whose actions made such "reckless and false charges" credible? What concrete, visible evidence made so many people--not just in the Middle East, but in Europe and the United States--willing to believe "any charge they hear"?

Historically, it has been very very difficult for armies to behave well. US armies have not always done so, but their record (comparatively) was relatively good in "formal warfare" (though not at ALL good when deployed against domestic adversaries such as the Native Americans or striking workers!). It was not very good in the Philipines. It got worse in Vietnam. And now, alas, with the dispersal of special forces and "dark" units in many countries, it has gotten very shaky indeed.

Moreover, whatever credibility that was gained by past relatively good behavior, above all in post-1945 Europe and Japan -- behavior that resulted in part because of relatively good command and control, partly from various aspects of American culture, and who knows what else -- is FRAGILE! It does not take many atrocities to make more atrocities believable. Or to put it differently, echoing Zharkov's point but with the opposite implication: (1) the statement, "war is hell, armies commit atrocities" is easy to believe, and causes little outrage when it comes true. Who could be surprised? (2) The statement, in contrast, that "We are different: our army does not commit atrocities, and when it does, we move swiftly and comprehensively to punish those who commit, encourage, or allow them" is difficult to believe. As long as it is true, though, it represents a major advantage precisely in the kind of "reconstruction" work that the US military (for bad reasons, I'd say) is now stuck doing. But...such claims are so hard to believe, that it takes very little evidence to destroy them completely.

Thus, those who attack the media, of who say that we are overreacting, or that these atrocities were "relatively mild", misses the point entirely (not to mention that such claims demonstrate the ethical irresponsibility of those who make them). The Imhofes, Limbaughs, and even, alas, the Zharkovs of the world often want to say that they are the hardheaded realists. But very substantial evidence indicates that the strategies they advocate do NOT work. They didn't work in Vietnam. They didn't work for the Soviets in Afghanistan (or anywhere else, in the long run). And they will never, ever work for the United States.

In justification for the sexual humiliation, the poster described above noted people "pay good money" to be humiliated. Therefore, if some do it voluntarily, it cannot be bad to do by force. I guess since some people commit suicide voluntarily, killing people during torture can't be that bad.

bahko,

While the Stanford experiments are valid and do show how quickly things can get ugly, the study was flawed in one manner. The person running the experiment set the tone for it, and set the rules. He's the one that arranged for the 'prisoners' to be picked up, hooded and brought in. He's the one who allowed the tests to proceed in the manner it did.

These things don't happen in a vacuum... they're allowed to happen, or are encouraged to happen. It's not as simple as blaming it on human nature.

I was in the military for sex years (Active Army), and then several more years of inactive reserves. We were trained from day one to be able to recognize illegal orders, to know what the geneva convention was, what we were and were not allowed to do, and to disobey illegal orders. On top of all of that, my mother did a damn good job of teaching me the difference between right and wrong.

Regardless of military training, I would hope that people can realize and accept that things like rape and torture are, indeed, wrong.

I am, for the first time in my life, somewhat ashamed of wearing the same uniform that these soldiers (and their commanders) do. They have besmirched the honor of the US Army and if found guilty, deserve the harshest punishment possible.

If it were up to me, which it is not, I would give them a dishonorable discharge and then have them executed by military firing squad. Life in military prison would be acceptable for those that provide evidence that is instrumental in convicting their superiors.

The civilians involved? US Criminal Court, and if found guilty, extradite them to the Iraqi authorities for punishment.

This year my charitable donations will go to the International Red Cross & Red Cresent, and Amnesty International. It is the least I can do.

Damn, talk about a typo... that would be 'six years', not 'sex year'.

*sigh*

Sorry

Unseelie

Well, in Rumsfeld's new army, you don't know what to expect.

A. Zarkov:

if I remeber well, Clinton while running for President (and not for governor) thought a short break in the campaign to assist an execution a good idea.

I do not remember exactly what he said, but in his press conference Bush talked about the Iraqi scientist still not willing to tell the truth.
It was in the context of his talking like he still believed the WMDs were still there.
It the time I thought the entire chain of comments seemed strange.

Does anyone else remember this?

a

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