June 10, 2004

Torture and Rumors of Torture

Torture and rumors of torture. In my email inbox this morning...

If what it reports is true, then once again it looks like the Bush administration is worse than I had imagined--even though I thought I had taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is always worse than one imagines. Either Seymour Hersh is insane, or we have an administration that needs to be removed from office not later than the close of business today. The scariest part: "[Hersh] said he had seen all the Abu Ghraib pictures. He said, 'You haven't begun to see evil...' then trailed off. He said, 'horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run.' He looked frightened."

UPDATED: I failed to note that the taker of these notes is the excellent Rick Pearlstein, whose book about Goldwater is in my to-read pile:

Seymour Hersh spoke... at the University of Chicago.... I took some scattered notes. The remaks will be disjoined--as will be the notes--but chilling. He asserted several things that he says he didn't have nailed down enough to write, but that he was confident of....

He then turned to the 40th president, referring obliquely to 138 names, then began to list them, saying those with long memories will catch on: they were the Reagan administration figures accused, indicted, or convicted of wrongdoing....

He talked about Carl Levin (though he didn't use his name) telling him about high officials lying to him in closed hearings, and how frustrating it was to be lied to, in classified settings, when the liars know the senators know they are lying. Levin said he'd never seen such brazenness in Washington....

He waits after the My Lai story broke mid November 1969, one week, two weeks--then, by Thanksgiving 1969, other correspondents finally write about the atrocities THEY had seen in Vietnam: an outpouring that made him feel strange that it took little old him, the police reporter who had flunked out of law school, 11 years after winning his B.A. in English, to unleash this outpouring of truth....

From My Lai, the transition to the current scandals was seemless. He connected the dots, and spoke of the CIA secret prisons we haven't heard about yet: "We're basically in the disappearing business." He made the first of several criticisms of our humble profession: "there's no learning curve in America. There's no learning curve in the press corps."...

Unsurprisingly, he flagged the extraordinary importance of the WSJ memo revealing the government's plans to torture, including its assertion that it's not against the law if the president approves it, and mocked the New York Times headline "9 Militias Are Said to Approve a Deal to Disband," suggesting in its stead, "Bush Administration Offers Hoax in Hopes of Convincing U.S. There's Some Peace." His assessment of the postwar settlement: "It's going to come down to who has the biggest militia will win."...

Then a story from one of his intelligence sources, whom Hersh says didn't find it an unflattering story: some time in 1986 or 1987, Reagan was given a long chart presentation of what actually happened with Iran/Contra and began sleeping five minutes in to it, then snoring on Nancy's shoulder. After twenty minutes it was over, the helicopter was fired up for the Friday trip to Camp David, Nancy aroused him, he awoke with a start, glanced at the charts, and asked, "What's that."  Sy said something like "That's MY Ronald Reagan."...

"NATO's falling apart in Afghanistan now."

And this was one of the most stunning parts. He had just returned from Europe, and he said high officials, even foreign ministers, who used to only talk to him off the record or give him backchannel messages, were speaking on the record that the next time the U.S. comes to them with intelligence, they'll simply have no reason to believe it.... He lamented of his journalistic colleagues, "I don't know whey they don't just tell it like it is."...

He said the people most horrified by the way the war was planned were the military commanders responsible for protecting their troops.... He talked about the horror of the 1000 civilian deaths in Fallujah (but was careful to note the Marines were doing their job, placing the blame with their superiors)....

He talked about how hard it is to get the truth out in Republican Washington: "If you agree with the neocons you're a genius. If you disagree you're a traitor." Bush, he said, was closing ranks, purging anyone who wasn't 100% with him. Said Tenet has a child in bad health, has heart problems, and seemed to find him generally a decent guy under unimaginable pressure, and that people told him that Tenet feared a heart attack if he had to take one more grilling from Cheney. "When these guys memoirs come out, it will shock all of us."...

He said that after he broke Abu Ghraib people are coming out of the woodwork to tell him this stuff. He said he had seen all the Abu Ghraib pictures. He said, "You haven't begun to see evil..." then trailed off. He said, "horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run."

He looked frightened.

Posted by DeLong at June 10, 2004 11:55 AM | TrackBack | | Other weblogs commenting on this post
Comments

Note to Hersh:

Don't fly in small planes.

Posted by: Matthew Saroff on June 10, 2004 12:09 PM

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I had always wondered what the Jews in Germany felt like 1933 to 1938. I am begining to get the feel.
Where could one live that would be outside the reach of the upcoming Bush second term?

Posted by: dilbert on June 10, 2004 12:34 PM

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Most people don't believe that stuff like this could ever happen. They are wrong, but outside of a certain "skeptical 20%" of the population, it takes incontovertible proof to produce any kind of acceptance at all. I have no doubt we are disappearing people; I furthermore question, however, when has the US not been disappearing people (at least through proxies)? I am certain in the paranoid throes of the Cold War 50's and 60's similar excesses abounded. My god, operation Phoenix in Vietnam, how many did we assasinate? Our govenment is not overly gentle, and Brook's "American Exceptionalism" is a complete hoax.

Posted by: Dave on June 10, 2004 12:36 PM

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I hated reading "Bend Sinister", and I hate being reminded of it.

Posted by: Ben Vollmayr-Lee on June 10, 2004 12:41 PM

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"I had always wondered what the Jews in Germany felt like 1933 to 1938. I am begining to get the feel.
Where could one live that would be outside the reach of the upcoming Bush second term?"

Posted by dilbert at June 10, 2004 12:34 PM

When one compares the relative strengths of Germany in the 1930's and the USA today, the answer seems to be 'nowhere on Earth".

Posted by: Barry on June 10, 2004 12:55 PM

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So when do you think Chalabi will be "disappeared"?

Posted by: Kosh on June 10, 2004 12:58 PM

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Problem inherent in the democracy: 40% (roughly Bush's job approval) of our fellow countrymen are retards. And they vote!

Posted by: bubba on June 10, 2004 01:02 PM

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> Note to Hersh: Don't fly in small planes.

Another thing: don't stay in hotel rooms alone.

Posted by: s9 on June 10, 2004 01:11 PM

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> Note to Hersh: Don't fly in small planes.

Another thing: don't stay in hotel rooms alone.

Posted by: s9 on June 10, 2004 01:13 PM

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If I read this correctly, Hersh didn't write about this stuff because it wasn't 'nailed down'.

If Hersh had the journalistic ethics of some of his colleagues, Bush would be out of office tomorrow. I mean, outside of oral sex, what does a guy have to do to get impeached?

Posted by: cc on June 10, 2004 01:30 PM

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A very troubling and despairing post. It's like having a nightmare. Those of us who saw things fairly clearly from the start never imagined it would get this bad. We thought that the sane heads of any administration would reign in the crazies, and that the respectable press would serve as a guard-dog to limit the worst outrages. As someone who remembers, this is much worse than the darkest moments of Vietnam, with the exception of the Kent State massacre. We haven't experienced anything like that only because the current generation of students is so quiescent.

Posted by: Knut Wicksell on June 10, 2004 02:07 PM

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Barry,
I need something to keep me from dark despair, please help.
Knut,
I think that is what those people in Germany thought too.

Posted by: dilbert dogbert on June 10, 2004 02:17 PM

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I fear for Hersh.

"Will no one rid me of this meddlesome [journalist]?"

Posted by: Charles M on June 10, 2004 02:55 PM

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Bend Sinister, what an amazing and deeply depressing book.

Posted by: poop ruiz on June 10, 2004 03:13 PM

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Bend Sinister, what an amazing and deeply depressing book.

Posted by: poop ruiz on June 10, 2004 03:14 PM

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oops

Posted by: poop ruiz on June 10, 2004 03:14 PM

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Is there ANY way to get a transcript of this?

Also, Brad writes, "Either Seymour Hersh is insane, or we have an administration that needs to be removed from office not later than the close of business today."

I think Hersh may very well be crazy AND correct about the administration. You can only trudge through the darkest aspects of humanity for so long before losing it in some manner.

Posted by: Brad Reed on June 10, 2004 03:14 PM

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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=679&ncid=742&e=1&u=/usatoday/20040610/cm_usatoday/howinnocentiraqiscametobeabusedasterrorists:

So the chain of events seems to have worked like this: Rules violating the Geneva Conventions were invented for dealing with proven terrorists in specific places or circumstances. But they gradually came to be applied to hundreds of suspects, many of them innocent. Military officials said 70% to 90% of the Iraqis swept up for interrogation were arrested by mistake, the International Committee of the Red Cross reported.

We met the enemy and he is us.

Posted by: bubba on June 10, 2004 03:51 PM

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Knut Wicksell,

This can't possibly be worse than the darkest point of Vietnam. In Vietnam well over 1,000,000 Vietnamese and over 50,000 US soldiers died during the time we were involved (http://www.vietnamwall.org/pdf/casualty.pdf). I don't see how we can reasonably say that things are worse now than they were in Vietnam. Or was the Vietnam comparison meant in a different sense?

Posted by: Jason K on June 10, 2004 03:55 PM

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-"Where could one live that would be outside the reach of the upcoming Bush second term?"

...try Tora Bora, it seemed to work for the world's most wanted man, or maybe Saudi Arabia (hell, you could probably hitch a ride on Air Force One).

If the pictures Hersh saw ever get leaked, that'd be a disaster (all arguments about transparency to the side). I wonder how much longer it will take for the US to earn back the 'moral leadership' position ceded by the Bush administration's reckless foreign policy.

Even if Kerry wins, there are a lot of pieces to put back together. If he loses...no...f**k that.

Posted by: forgetting on June 10, 2004 04:25 PM

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Note that those pictures Hersh saw were obviously not among the ones shown to the U.S. Congress. Someone in the Congress needs this information, for those of the readership better connected than I.

Posted by: cafl on June 10, 2004 05:49 PM

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It's just fucking pathetic. An entire nation's good name utterly destroyed in less than four years by one psychotic frat boy.

Posted by: SW on June 10, 2004 06:49 PM

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>Or was the Vietnam comparison meant in
>a different sense?

I think in terms of damage to the fabric of the body politic in this country -- in what has been done to our civic culture -- it's worse.

You're right -- the body counts aren't comparable.

Posted by: Davis X. Machina on June 10, 2004 07:08 PM

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I echo SW's sentiments. If there actually is video or other evidence of abuse of children by US troops or contractors, well, I don't know what to say next, or how to anticipate my response. It would buckle my knees and take me to the ground.

Posted by: David on June 10, 2004 07:14 PM

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I echo SW's sentiments. If there actually is video or other evidence of abuse of children by US troops or contractors, well, I don't know what to say next, or how to anticipate my response. It would buckle my knees and take me to the ground.

Posted by: David on June 10, 2004 07:15 PM

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I echo SW's sentiments. If there actually is video or other evidence of abuse of children by US troops or contractors, well, I don't know what to say next, or how to anticipate my response. It would buckle my knees and take me to the ground.

Posted by: David on June 10, 2004 07:16 PM

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THe past 3 years have been an overreaction to a catastrophic event. As bad as the embassy bombings were, Clinton did not overreact. That was the big fear after 9/11 and everyone thought that Bush was somewhat restrained and doing a good job in Afghanistan. The first notice we had that the administration was overboard was the PATRIOT act. Since then it has been all fear mongering. Scared people make poor leaders.

Posted by: bakho on June 10, 2004 07:31 PM

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If there actually is video or other evidence of abuse of children by US troops or contractors, well, I don't know what to say next, or how to anticipate my response. It would buckle my knees and take me to the ground.

Your knees should have already buckled. The U.S. government sponsored as bad or worse in Central America in the '80s (You know, back when that genial old man we're supposed to mourn and revere was president?) No pictures, though.

I guess that's what makes this different.

Posted by: Billmon on June 10, 2004 07:58 PM

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spare me your "genial old man" condescension, billmon, and your frat boy gone native self regard. I don't need any history summaries from you, and for me there's ample distinction between "sponsored" and what we're seeing today.

So much is summed up in your adolescent "we're supposed to" -- I can hear you little smirk quite clearly.

Posted by: David on June 10, 2004 08:12 PM

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>and for me there's ample distinction between >"sponsored" and what we're seeing today.

But when one has led to the other, where's the distinction? It's the same policy, the same process, just developed a little further, implemented in a more direct manner.

I think it does come down to the existence of pictures.

Posted by: sm on June 10, 2004 08:21 PM

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>I wonder how much longer it will >
>take for the US to earn back the
>'moral leadership' position ceded >
>by the Bush administration's
>reckless foreign policy.

A generation? A century?

I think people will NEVER look at the USA the same way again. Justifiably or not, people will draw lines backward, and many aspects of US history, domestic and international, will look different than they do now. There will be a whole new legend of the USA.

I expect that within a year, a new Iraqi government will convene a public tribunal to air the crimes we've heard about and those that we have not. They will have mountains of evidence. What effect it will have on Americans I can't say.
I think the effect on everybody else's view of Americans is already clear. It will be deepened and clarified and made permanent. Much of what we now think of as America's historic reputation will be overshadowed by it.

Posted by: sm on June 10, 2004 08:43 PM

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“Shock and awe” has been the hallmark of the Iraq war since its beginning. President Bush on 9/11 asked, “Why do they hate us?” and gave his own perfunctory answer as he initiated a war of overwhelming military power. “Shock and awe” was driven home to every soldier in the field, and to the military commanders. To those taught to do the killing, “shock and awe” translates into “fear and humiliation.”

It is not hard to realize why the reports of Human Rights Watch and the International Red Cross were ignored. And even why the warnings of Colin Powell and some of the military officers were ignored.

The thousands of brutal actions being taken were not mentioned to the echelons at the top because it was well understood that those actions are what was expected by “shock and awe.”
-Bill Ellis

Posted by: bakho on June 10, 2004 09:10 PM

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I have been a supporter of Bush all along, but if I saw proof that our military was engaged in the abuse of children as policy, I would drop Bush in a heart beat.

Posted by: d smith on June 10, 2004 09:15 PM

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Saroff and S9 said it first, but it was the first thing I thought of on reading Hersh's remarks, and the words "he looked frightened."

Stay out of small planes. Don't go anywhere alone.

I used to shake my head in disbelief at the thought that people would say things like these. Now I'm saying them. I hope Sy Hersh is saying them too.

Posted by: Name on June 10, 2004 09:42 PM

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it's not condescension, David. it's the chain of command, those 138 names Hersh noted, names like Otto Reich, men who engaged in criminal acts, including the support of death squads who raped and killed nuns.

There is a direct line of descent from Reagan's administration to this one.

If America does not stop this adminstration NOW, via the proper channels established by rule of law...remember the Constitution?...then we, as a nation, have embraced utter depravity.

Bush has dragged the good name of this nation into the gutter.

Posted by: fauxreal on June 10, 2004 09:45 PM

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Ongoing news coverage:

http://news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&q=George-Bush+torture

Posted by: Raven on June 10, 2004 10:10 PM

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The movie Brazil is for some reason percolating up into my mind as I read all this. Dark, very dark.

I also keep thinking Blipverts when I watch the politcal ads and commentary.

Fiction is becoming reality. One step at a time.

At the rate things are going, Kruschev will be proven right.

Posted by: dgrumpycat on June 10, 2004 10:11 PM

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David - go the the Museum of American atrocities in Hanoi and take a long, hard look at the pictures of grinning Marines holding severed VC heads.

Pictures may be worth a thousand words, but just cause the lens hasn't witnessed something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

No condenscension intended.

Posted by: floopmeister on June 10, 2004 10:13 PM

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d smith:

Legitimate query here--the exposed widespread abuse of adults, supported by now-exposed administration policy, isn't enough for you to reject Bush? If not, why?

Posted by: Mark Bialkowski on June 10, 2004 10:25 PM

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Lot's of despair here. Yes, Sy Hersh has reason to be afraid, but this administration is unraveling. Maybe only one quarter of it will come out, but that should be plenty.

The American people think of themselves as Good. They don't like it when someone calls that seriously into doubt. Dilbert wondered what the Jews in Germany felt like 1933 to 1938. I wonder what the Germans felt like in 1948.

Posted by: John Carter on June 10, 2004 10:26 PM

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The C-141's lift off *every day* from McChord AFB, their heavy gray bulk arcing impossibly slowly above the crowded commuters on I-5.

Inside, forty sad soldiers riding fold-down seats side-saddle amid pallets of war cargo, strapped down for a 14-hour flight.

Back on earth, conversations continue uninterrupted. There's some goofy radio announcer making fun of Bush. Howard is doing his morning sex thing. Still.

Everyone around me looks straight ahead, hurtling through asphalt space at 88 feet per second.

In a few moments more, that giant C-141 is lost from sight, only it's smoke contrails hanging in the sky.

I wonder what's on Fox tonight?

It's kinda sad when political commentary degenerates into choss, recycled, sardonic, trite and ultimately, just massage therapy.

It's really sad when political humor devolves into sight gags, and pithy emotionless pantomimes:

"How much will the war in Iraq cost, Mr. Bush?" (imitating our listless Press Corps)

"A hundred dollars, (imitating Rain Man), yeah, yeah, a hundred dollars."

It's ultimately tragic, when the best thing we can find to raise our spirits in these dark times is a hot bath in Reagan's blood, candles lit to hide his true back-story, soft martial music on the radio playing a dirge for America's future.

We are totally, royally f&*ked.

Posted by: Tante Aime on June 10, 2004 10:34 PM

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John Carter: The American people think of themselves as Good. They don't like it when someone calls that seriously into doubt.

And the typical response is to shoot that someone.

Separate issue is what the Germans felt in 1948. That depends on which Germans. East Germans felt mostly fear with a bit of hunger. West Germans - mostly gratitude. Communism is a great evil. We are the lesser evil. Makes you happy, does not it?

Posted by: bubba on June 10, 2004 10:40 PM

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If you haven't been riding in that C-141, or lived expatriate for enough years to become part of a foreign community, especially an outback rural community with communal values, then you can't possibly imagine what it's like to come back to Corporate-State America with eyes clear, ears open . . . and stomach heaving.

Posted by: aaron haffen on June 10, 2004 10:41 PM

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I was reading the London Review of Books, and there's a good piece by Slavoj Zizek, written before the torture memo came out. It ends thus:

::

Who can forget the Department of Defense news briefing in February 2003, when Donald Rumsfeld pondered the relationship between the known and the unknown: 'There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.' What he forgot to add was the crucial fourth term: the 'unknown knowns', things we don't know that we know, which is precisely the Freudian unconscious, the 'knowledge which doesn't know itself', as Lacan used to say. Rumsfeld thought the main dangers in the confrontation with Iraq were the 'unknown unknowns', the threats from Saddam that hadn't been foreseen. The Abu Ghraib scandal shows where the real dangers are: in the 'unknown knowns', the disavowed beliefs, suppositions, and obscene practices we pretend not to know about, although they form the flipside of public morality. (In Britain, the exposure of the Mirror's photographs of British abuses as fake has allowed government and public alike to repress, for the moment, their own 'unknown knowns'.) Bush was wrong: in the photos of humiliated Iraqi prisoners, what we get is, precisely, an insight into 'American values'.

::

Some people are re-reading 'Heart of Darkness'; I'm re-reading 'Nostromo'.

Posted by: nick on June 10, 2004 10:44 PM

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Tante

That brought back a memory or two. My father was stationed at Wheeler AFB in Hawaii in 70. Of course we went with him.

We flew military standby from Travis to Hickam on a 141. Grand adventure for newbie teenager, for about the first hour. It was cold, loud and spartan. Pallet seating was hell and I kept looking at the equipment pallets and wondering what was in them.
When we settled, I spent a great deal of time in awe of the traffic out of Hickam. Medivac, contract and C-5's going to and coming from Viet Nam. It seemed endless. I was a plane buff and it was exciting. Then slowly it began to creep into my sheltered brain these planes meant something.
When we returned to the states (San Antonio), we came by standby on a contracted Continental flight with returning troops. By then I was clued in. They did not look excited about going home. Many still had mud on their fatigues. They just looked tired and a bit lost. Reality had not sunk in yet.
When we settled in SA, our house was directly in the flight path for the main runway at Kelly. Again, endless flights. For a long time, day or night the traffic was no more than two minutes apart. Many of the flights were the Medivac flights in I think what were DC-9's. I knew where their contents were headed and I would give a small prayer each time.

The point is things were surreal then. I could feel the dichotomy between my reality of going to school and doing normal teenager stuff and realizing above my head was the business of something totally outside that of those below it.

I sort of get that feeling again. I read things such as this article on Sy Hersh and then go to work at my happy little job the next day. I find myself staring at the folks around me wondering if any of them have a clue. the only one I can say comes close is an old Viet Nam era Corpsman. He is not a happy man.

Posted by: dgrumpycat on June 10, 2004 10:53 PM

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Military contractors Titan and CACI are getting sued for torture. Here an FT article.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1086445557450&p=1012571727102

Posted by: cm on June 10, 2004 11:24 PM

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Reuters cameraman Mazen Dana was killed by a US soldier firing from a tank outside Abu Ghraib prison in Aug (Sept?) 2003. Before he was murdered he had discovered US soldiers were burying bodies wrapped in plastic in mass graves in the desert around Baghdad. He told colleagues that a source, a US merc, told him the bodies were soldiers and other mercenaries lured to Iraq with the promise of green cards and eventual US citizenship. Dana told family and friends in the weeks before he died that he thought the US military was watching him and that he was afraid. So we have torture, mass graves, we're even poisoning our own soldiers (and all of Iraq) with depleted uranium. Will we be re-electing Bush with 99% of the vote, too?

Posted by: cs on June 10, 2004 11:30 PM

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After all thats been exposed of this administration, and yet he still carries 44% of voters approval.. It should be at 1%.

Sad time for America.

Posted by: Hien Bowden on June 11, 2004 12:06 AM

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Wow, quite hillarious how this entire message board is nothing more then one giant left wing circle jerk

1) honestly CS, why would the US gov't bury their own soldiers in plastic bags in iraq. The current body count is well publicized and appears weekly in The Army Times for example, not to mention prominently displayed on the Army's website. It is not as if a platoon of soldiers suddently gets killed and the Army is able to somehow cover that up from the families and public, not to mention all of the redundant layers of internal policing.

2) had you taken the time to study the subject, as opposed to standing up on your soap box, you'd realize that depleted uranium is really only used on heavy army weapons systems, the type which generally are not used during counter-insurgency warfare, and that furthermore DU is hazardous in the same way that any heavy metal is, in other words, using a tungsten/lead based shell for a tank would be just as bad.

As for the torture, the only thing that we know for certain right now is that it took place in a horribly run reserve unit that lacked even basic military discipline and decorum. hardly a reflection on the active duty forces or those that have even a remotely functioning chain of command

Posted by: Jon on June 11, 2004 12:13 AM

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The fact is that there were more than a few Germans in 1948 that rued they had lost the war--not that Hitler was a genocidal madman or that the ideals and methods of the Third Reich (with their superlative chains of command) were unacceptable and a form of death-worship.

Just like many Confederates in 1868 regretted only their defeat--and rejected not one iota the slave economy and master race culture they fought for in glorious "active duty".

Just like in 2008...Keep laughing, jolly Jon. At least you won't be alone. Better yet, remember your comments a few years from now when the consequences of Bush's pisspoor leadership become more evident.

There will always be folks who can't smell smoke, and need to be burned by the fire I guess.

Posted by: Tim B. on June 11, 2004 12:57 AM

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And that's why the Lying Chimp is above 1%. His supporters are in such denial, to save face most likely, that they just don't belive the evidence in front of their eyes.

Posted by: GOPerpWalk on June 11, 2004 01:29 AM

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Jon -- Your question about why we would bury US soldiers in the desert is precisely my point. So if they're not US soldiers, who are they? Mazen Dana is dead, shot from a tank outside Abu Ghraib prison after having been given permission to shoot film there. His description of bodies wrapped in plastic long preceeds what we've seen and read about plastic-wrapped body at Abu Ghraib.

Jon, I heard a former head of CIA counter-intelligence give a speech over a year ago in which he argued that Americans had to get over our "sqeamishness" about torture and assassination as tools of "the war on terror." I heard him speak in the midwest, but here's a link to an article on a similar talk he gave in Texas:

http://tinyurl.com/32p7g

Here's the link to info on Mazen Dana:

http://tinyurl.com/2qhom

Here's the link to Uranium Medical Research Center info on DU in Iraq:

http://tinyurl.com/yr68h

Here's an article about NY National Guard soldiers suffering radiation contamination after serving in Iraq:

http://tinyurl.com/2jygb

What has happened in Afghanistan and Iraq is a reflection on our military, and on our civilian defense department and on all of us. But most immediately it has permanently damaged the lives of the victims and their families, and the men and women who believed they were following a noble calling by serving in the military in our name. We can't blow it off as "a few bad apples" we have to face it and deal with it. We are all accountable.

Posted by: cs on June 11, 2004 02:08 AM

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Jon -- Your question about why we would bury US soldiers in the desert is precisely my point. So if they're not US soldiers, who are they? Mazen Dana is dead, shot from a tank outside Abu Ghraib prison after having been given permission to shoot film there. His description of bodies wrapped in plastic long preceeds what we've seen and read about plastic-wrapped body at Abu Ghraib.

Jon, I heard a former head of CIA counter-intelligence give a speech over a year ago in which he argued that Americans had to get over our "sqeamishness" about torture and assassination as tools of "the war on terror." I heard him speak in the midwest, but here's a link to an article on a similar talk he gave in Texas:

http://tinyurl.com/32p7g

Here's the link to info on Mazen Dana:

http://tinyurl.com/2qhom

Here's the link to Uranium Medical Research Center info on DU in Iraq:

http://tinyurl.com/yr68h

Here's an article about NY National Guard soldiers suffering radiation contamination after serving in Iraq:

http://tinyurl.com/2jygb

What has happened in Afghanistan and Iraq is a reflection on our military, and on our civilian defense department and on all of us. But most immediately it has permanently damaged the lives of the victims and their families, and the men and women who believed they were following a noble calling by serving in the military in our name. We can't blow it off as "a few bad apples" we have to face it and deal with it. We are all accountable.

Posted by: cs on June 11, 2004 02:15 AM

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DU is used in the projectiles fired by M-1 Abrams tanks, M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles and A-10 aircraft.

All have been deployed to Iraq. I can understand that the M-1 tanks are not using DU shells since 'major combat operations' but the A-10s and M2s fire 30mm and 25mm shells and they're probably still rattling off those when dealing with infantry attacks.

We've dumped tons of DU on Iraq over the past 12 years. The jury is still out on the health effects of DU. Apparently the Navy made a decision to ditch DU in favor of tungsten for one of their weapon systems. The tungsten was good enough for their purposes and they just didn't want to deal with the potential pollution/health effects of the DU.

Posted by: Bram on June 11, 2004 02:22 AM

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Hey, does anybody know where a transcript of Sy's speech can be obtained? I want to see the whole thing and I can't even find out -- assuming that it is recent -- if it actually exists. Google had nothing. Brad piece points to the University of Chicago. The Univ. of Chicago Chronicle announced Hersh was to give the keynote address at its May 14-15 media conference but cancelled at the last minute. End of leads.

All the above, combined with Brad's qualifier at the beginning of the piece, has me totally baffled. Like, help, where did this come from?

Posted by: The Miller on June 11, 2004 02:24 AM

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"It's just fucking pathetic. An entire nation's good name utterly destroyed in less than four years by one psychotic frat boy."

Any people are susceptible to nationalism, it's just the US's turn to realise that. After all the people are just immigrants from other countries that had nationalist dictators at some stage.

Also the stigma will take decades or more to erase. Look at Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan, Chile, Nicaragua, Panama, Russia, Serbia, etc. It's not their shame they had that kind of dictator but that such a large percentage of their populations approved of it. If it wasn't so, those dictators could have been easily gotten rid of.

If you have any inequality in a society then some people will take advantage of it. If you have someone who distorts the natural system and creates artificial inequalities then some people will again exploit that arrangement and resist going back to a normal system. There are plenty of people doing well under Bush, and don't want to see it end no matter what.

Posted by: dispassionate on June 11, 2004 03:21 AM

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miller,

i too went looking for a transcript. hersh's may talk was postponed and given on june 8.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/04/040603.hersh.shtml

i'm tempted to call uc and see if there is an audio tape. if i learn anything, i'll post it here.

Posted by: selise on June 11, 2004 03:32 AM

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If this horrible thing is true (and so far it's only hearsay, though consistent with what we do know already) impeachment and disgrace will not be enough. Conspiracy to torture requires prosecution for felonies, hard time in Marion, and no presidential pardons.

Posted by: James on June 11, 2004 04:46 AM

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What surprises me the most is that a lot of you think that the US had a good reputation before Bush. Do you honestly think that the rest of the world has forgotten that your government was responsible for supporting some of the worst regimes and commiting the worst atrocities?

Guatemala (CIA organized coup in the 50s), Iran (same), Chile (CIA organized coup in the 70s), Nicaragua (selling arms to Iran to support the contras), El Salvador (military death squads financed with your money), Vietnam (1-4 million dead depending on who's counting), etc.

Bush contribution is only one more item in a long list. When will you realize that your government, and by extension you, have become the scourge of this planet?

Posted by: Not so naive on June 11, 2004 05:31 AM

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I'm asking myself, "Do I really disapprove of people being disappeared, tortured, etc, and that's the reason I hate Bush?" I don't think so, really. I think that the reason I disapprove of the aforementioned activities is because I was inclined to hate Bush before-hand, and this, among other things, helped rationalize it.

I think that whether I considered something right or wrong depends a lot on the circumstances. For instance: an SS soldier who kills Jews, prying the gold fillings out of their teeth, able to live a fairly luxurious lifestyle, I consider "bad," whereas, while I've probably effectively killed around 30 people throughout my life through my relatively luxurious lifestyle that could have maintained many people with lower standards of living, I don't think of myself as a bad person for doing so, even though I'm basically doing the same thing. In short, my outrage at Bush is effectively using the knowledge of torture as a tool to rationalize pre-existing anti-Bushism. The torture and such didn't CAUSE anti-Bushism

Anyway, my point is, we shouldn't be so judgemental of those who still support Bush without wondering about our own motivations in opposing him. If the people outraged at Bush had been, like the country as a whole, 50% having voted for him in the 2000 election and 50% having voted for Gore, while the people not really outraged about the torture had been likewise divided, then perhaps we would be justified in claiming the bankruptcy of those who still support him. As it is, though, both sides views' on the torture matter usually fit in with prejudices we had before torture was ever alleged, or, for that matter, before Bush ever stepped into the Oval Office.

Posted by: Julian Elson on June 11, 2004 05:45 AM

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well, not so naive,

most of us are in some serious denial here, aided by a culture that gives us lots of distractions and a very good system of propaganda.

but many of us do realize just what you have said. and we are trying to combat the ignorance. have a look at jon's post and see what we are up against.

this country WILL crash. and maybe we will take the planet down with us. even removing bush isn't going to do the trick, as you correctly point out, this is who we have become as a nation. but the rest of the world has got to stand together and stop us, because it is quite obvious that we are not going to stop ourselves. (there are some bold efforts underway. i'm thinking in particular of hugo chavez in venezuela attempting to organize latin america.)

now, before jon begins calling me a worthless piece of commie scum who hates america, let me say that i am well into my 50s and lived all of my life until the last few years in typical american self-delusion. not the kind where i denied what we were doing, but the kind where i believed that with a change in administrations we would stop doing it. i know better now. but it is very late in the game.

i'm sorry to put this problem off on the rest of the world, but i think it is time to quit counting on americans to wake up. you can't afford to wait. those of you who live in governments who are complicit are americans, too. those of you who live in governments who pander to america's policies because you need the money or the protection are mafia dupes. this is a two-way street here. please, tell me, what is the solution? i don't see much hope to rectify the situation.

and yet, those of us here who are tired and depressed, and who may feel and talk as though we are defeated, won't quit trying to break through the wall of ignorance and denial that exists for many, if not most, of our fellow countrymen. we write blogs and news articles and books, we petition our governing officials, we march, even though it all seems as though no one hears us and we are just talking to ourselves (jon's liberal circle jerk).

the more radical amongst us are at this very moment advocating rebellion and preparing for civil war.

in our own ways, we'll keep on trying to correct the situation.

we need your help. and thank you for it.


Posted by: m on June 11, 2004 06:47 AM

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When, and to whom, was the Sy Hersh speech given - Any way to get a transcript?

Posted by: Ken Buchanan on June 11, 2004 06:53 AM

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Frightened or not, I think Hersh has to stop alluding and start producing these ghastly pieces of evidence. Perhaps the time is not yet right, what with the Reagan mourning orgy still going on, and the still-unsettled question of what INDEPENDENT investigation will give us the definitive answers, but Hersh ultimately has a moral obligation to report this in convincing detail to the public.

Bush's tap dancing at the G-8 meeting about whether he has forbidden torture strongly suggests that there is somewhere an authorizing memo/directive. For it to be an effective order, it had to be distributed far beyond the tight little neocon circle at the top. As the investigation moves upward, as it is already starting to do, there inevitably will be already disgruntled military officials who are unwilling to fall on their swords for Bush. They will give him up. In fact, the leaking of the memos we've seen so far suggests that this process has already begun.

Part of the horrified fascination I remember from Watergate was the great unease about whether Nixon, once he was finally boxed into an unescapable corner, would give up power voluntarily. I feel the same unease now, but am very thankful that the Bushco incompetents have managed to alienate both the military and the CIA in the course of their fumbling. The fact that damning information is now leaking from these two parties gives me hope they would not cooperate in a pusch to keep Bush in power.

Posted by: smith on June 11, 2004 07:38 AM

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There is a difference which some on this board are missing.

I have no doubt that Sy Hersh is correct about the treatment of children at not only Abu Ghraib but throughout the US gulag system. What makes this different from Vietnam or Guatemala or whatever other example people are introducing here is that this is a case of *depravity* which is almost unimaginable.

Intention matters.

Cruel/inhuman is not the same as depraved.

Killing an enemy in a prison is worse than killing him on the battlefield.

Killing a child is worse than killing an adult.

Raping or sexually torturing someone is worse than beating them.

Exploiting the bond between parent and child is worse than exploiting the bond between friends.

Because these things are true, revelations of the sexually depraved abuse of children at Abu Ghraib will shake Americans and the world to their core. Some will weep. Some will rage. Some will minimize. Some will refuse to believe against all evidence because they literally *cannot* do so -- it would destroy their ability to function in the world.

It's not about numbers. It's not about one man in the Oval Office. It is about the darkness -- and give Bush his due, there truly *is* evil in the world -- that lies on the hearts of Americans. It is about the horror.

Posted by: General Glut on June 11, 2004 08:09 AM

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What I find most disturbing is the idea that this administration feels that it is above the law. At this rate a Bush victory will mean that the 2004 campaign will be refered to as "American Democracy's Farewell Tour"

Posted by: Jonathan on June 11, 2004 08:30 AM

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Re:I wonder how much longer it will >
>take for the US to earn back the
>'moral leadership' position ceded >
>by the Bush administration's
>reckless foreign policy.

As a Canadian I think that the change in attitude toward the US is not simply the result of the morally corrupt administration, it stems also from the ethically bankrupt media.

Posted by: PT on June 11, 2004 08:47 AM

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Does anyone have any real proof of the sexual torture of children in Iraq by US soldiers? Charges that serious (like accusations of WMD) need indisputable proof.

Posted by: Jason K on June 11, 2004 08:49 AM

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Jason and Smith are right; Hersh or somebody else needs to present the proof. However, Hersh's track record on Abu Ghraib is so good and the risks to his professional reputation and career of making false changes this inflamatory are so enormous that I cannot believe he is wrong. As Brad's correspondent said, "He asserted several things that he says he didn't have nailed down enough to write, but that he was confident of."

Hersh alluded to the sexual abuse of children at Abu Ghraib on Charlie Rose in early May. Now again. Surely he wants an airtight case before *formally* breaking this part of the story in print (no allusion to children in any of his New Yorker pieces). He is surely also weighing the reponsibility of reporting this information against the incredible costs which will be paid by all involved no matter how tangentially, on people who are probably his sources as well as on US soldiers in the Middle East. We know from comments from people like Woodward that the elite media sees itself as a responsible gatekeeper of information. While I reject this role, it may be that Hersh is playing it in his own mind.

This story will surely break before November. We may have to wait a few months, however, for all the horrible details.

Posted by: General Glut on June 11, 2004 09:08 AM

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@Smith: Frightened or not, I think Hersh has to stop alluding and start producing these ghastly pieces of evidence.

Well, Hersh will be producing the evidence in his book about Abu Ghraib entitled Chain of Command. It's due out from Harper Collins this fall.

Posted by: Louise on June 11, 2004 09:09 AM

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OK, here is a little history lesson on how to prosecute a war correctly. War can suck for everyone, but it is like they say.."if you wanna do it right; do it right." We do not have a Eisenhower, or a Schawrzkopf. We do not have true competent leader. We have incomptence.

The reason we have a Geneva Convention and fair treatment of prisoners is a "war strategy" to help win the war. If an enemy combatent knows he will be treated fairly..then they give up in droves as the Iraqi's gave up in Gulf War 1, and they were treated humanely...back in 1991.

So, the history lesson begins with the Nazi SS Malmedy massacre of US troops caught up in the "Battle of the Bulge". This is in WW11, if you have forgotten. Hundreds of US soldiers were captured and executed SS style. (Please keep in mind that the SS did that to Russian soldier prisoners also, as they put Russian soldiers in concentration camps...when Russians found that out...things got worse and "no mercy" for all Germans, man,women and child)...When US soldiers found out what happened after Malmedy; it stiffened its resolve; the GI Joe was not likely to surrender as easily as his German counterpart, who also gave up in droves near the end (not the fanatical).
So, when the insurgents or any American enemy now knows he will not be treated humanely, but with "stress positions" and "fear of attack dogs" and unsevere beatings (whatever that means);
then we have now stiffened the resolve of our made-enemies. We have also made it a "war of no rules" by lowering ourselves to Guerilla war tactics...so you see...we have severely f'd up.
All the double-talk cannot make go away the extreme danger now posed to US peacekeepers in Iraq and elsewhere...Now the US soldier has stiffened his/ her resolve not to get captured; ore be beheaded; now the iraqi insurgents have stiffened its resolve not to surrender but to now fight like a Nazi SS fanatic.
We sleep in the bed we made now, I feel so sorry for the soldiers and parents of soldiers on duty because they are fighting a war where it is being prosecuted by incompetent fanatics.

War is hell. Our reputation that we so coveted in propaganda is now Kaput, as the Germans used to coin a phrase. My direct family fought in the revolutionary war, there are portaits of them in musuems. That is why I am so sad, also.
Goodnight America!

Posted by: Dave S on June 11, 2004 09:47 AM

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If it's concern about the children, I think we already have plenty of information to tell us how we can expect they are being treated. (Some of us won't believe unless we see it with our own eyes, and some of us will justify it even if we do.)

To cite a few cases that have been reported:
....
Al-Baz said he saw a 12– or 13-year-old Iraqi girl brought into the prison.

Late at night, he said, she was brought in front of his and other prison cells, naked and screaming. Her brother, held in an upper cell, heard her scream and call out for his help, said al-Baz.

On another occasion, al-Baz said, he saw a 15-year-old Iraqi boy, who was ill, being forced to hold two heavy cans of water and run up and down a corridor. If the boy stopped, he was beaten with a stick by an American soldier, al-Baz said.

“He collapsed from exhaustion, so they stripped him and poured cold water over him,” al-Baz said.

Scotsman.com
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2894655

...

But in recent weeks there have been increasing reports of Iraqi men, women and even children being dragged from their homes at night by American patrols, or snatched off the streets and taken, hooded and manacled, to prison camps around the capital.

Children as young as 11 are claimed to be among those locked up for 24 hours a day in rooms with no light, or held in overcrowded tents in temperatures approaching 50C (122F).

...One of the most disturbing incidents concerns Sufiyan Abd al-Ghani, 11, who was with his uncle in a car that was stopped near his home in Hay al-Jihad at just after 10pm on May 27. The boy’s father heard a commotion and rushed outside to see him sprawled face down on the road with a rifle muzzle pressed against his neck and US officers shouting that someone in the car had shot at them.

Sufiyan was made to stay on the ground for three hours, while more than 100 soldiers poured into the neighborhood, searching houses and cars. Eventually he was taken away with his hands trussed behind his back and a hood draped over his head. No weapon had been found. The boy said that soldiers dug rifle butts into his neck and back and that the first night he was handcuffed and left alone in a tiny room open to the sky.

The following day he was moved to the airport, where he said for eight days he shared a tent with 22 adults, sleeping on the dirt, with no water to wash or change his clothes.

Sufiyan said that he was pulled from the tent one morning, hooded and manacled again, and driven to Sarhiyeh prison, to be kept in a room with 20 other youths aged 15 or 16 — regarded as minors by the Geneva Convention.

A woman inmate took his name and details and when she was released she alerted Sufiyan’s family. On June 21, the family obtained an injunction from a judge ordering the boy’s release, but they were told at the prison that the signature of an Iraqi judge no longer had legal authority. Even when an American military lawyer demanded his freedom, US troops refused to release him until the lawyer appeared at the prison. Privately US military lawyers say that they are appalled at how some of the arrests are being carried out.

Common Dreams
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0709-06.htm

...

A military intelligence analyst who recently completed duty at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq said Wednesday that the 16-year-old son of a detainee there was abused by U.S. soldiers to break his father's resistance to interrogators.

The analyst said the teenager was stripped naked, thrown in the back of an open truck, driven around in the cold night air, splattered with mud and then presented to his father at Abu Ghraib, the prison at the center of the scandal over abuse of Iraqi detainees.

Upon seeing his frail and frightened son, the prisoner broke down and cried and told interrogators he would tell them whatever they wanted, the analyst said.

Yahoo News
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=5&u=/chitribts/giboymistreatedtogetdadtotalk
....

And in that last one, it doesn't even appear that the boy was a prisoner.

And yet, I have to wonder about those of us who will only be concerned if the children are abused in prison. I'm thinking that years of sanctions that starved them and kept them from getting proper medical care, and then having their feet and arms blown off, not to mention their heads, in constant civilian bombings for the past year, is a pretty grave horror. But that's just me.

Posted by: m on June 11, 2004 10:03 AM

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i just hope people don't think this will end if kerry gets elected. kerry supports the war. indeed, no one would even have a chance at the presidency if they were to substantially question the role of self-styled global patriarch which the US has cemented itself in to ever since the end of WWII.

wars, wars by proxy, corporate takeovers of entire economies and social infrastructures... this is an empire we're dealing with here, not one rogue administration. it's not as if bush could have entirely restructured the country in one term. all that military power, skill in and resources for torture, economic clout, lack of transparency, systemic racism, a ruling class of uber-elites... it didn't come from nowhere.

sorry to say it, but america only ever had "moral leadership" with americans, and only a certain percentage of them at that.

Posted by: mike on June 11, 2004 10:58 AM

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Since we invaded Iraq I have been answering my phone with "Impeach Bush." Each of us now has to start saying not only "Impeach Bush" but also "then turn him and his cronies over to an international tribunal for war crimes." We have to say it loudly and publicly without fear or shame.

Only impeachment and a war crimes trial for W and his friends will redeem the USA.

Posted by: gmoke on June 11, 2004 11:02 AM

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During Russert's "interview" with the Moron he asked him how he would accept losing the election, and the response was a very firm "We won't lose." I may not have the exact quote, but the point is that this type of self assurance indicated to me that the fix is already in. Whatever Hersh has , whatever Tenet has, and anyone else has regarding the criminal monstrous nature of this Admin better do it PDQ. After Reagan's burial, starting on the Sunday talk shows Kerry and the Dem Party had better get on this torture story quick and not let it go.

Posted by: ChiBob on June 11, 2004 11:12 AM

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TheMiller: I've just done the same search and have pretty much the same question, though it seemed to me that Hersh's cancellation was for a May date and that he did in fact give the Convocation address on 6/8. A search of the Tribune and the Sun Times, however, shows nothing, nor does the independent press in Chicago. If what Brad has posted is true (and I have little doubt that it is), we'll probably just have to wait for the New Yorker to clue us in!

Posted by: Bean on June 11, 2004 11:30 AM

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The fix is definitely in, but I'm sure it's several factors, including Diebold, a terror attack on the US in September/October, some mixture of martial law and postponing of elections.

I never, ever in my wildest dreams, actually felt I couldn't trust my government -- even under Reagan, they managed to do =some= things right.

Under Bush, I've yet to see anything other than his raising the tax-credit for adopting a child from $5,000 to $10,000.

There's a messianic complex at 1600, and we're all going to pay the price. It's time to wake up -- the damage done will take generations to undo.

Posted by: Scott on June 11, 2004 11:52 AM

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I called the contact number on the University of Chicago News page; it sounded like it was Prof. Gretchen Soderlund's home phone number. Feeling awkward and sensing discomfort from her, I asked her if a transcript of Seymour Hersh's talk would eventually be made available on the UC website.

She said no, that "he had basically asked that it remain in the room."

Please don't call that number and bug her, I felt bad enough as it was. Perhaps Mr. Hersh will write it up and publish it as a future column.

So long as he does his writing in well-populated public areas, that is.

Posted by: ginny on June 11, 2004 11:55 AM

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I don't think anyone here has written that they would only become concerned about the current torture issue when it became clear that children were among the victims. The smug moralizing self satisfaction of some on the "left" is quite astonishing.

Posted by: David on June 11, 2004 12:11 PM

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I see Hersh is remaining consistent with his outrage about torture of Abu Ghraib prisoners under Saddam. Why, he must have wrote at least 100,000 words about it, obsessed over the brutality of Saddam's regime for months on end, haunted by the horrors perpetrated with the blessing of that government.

Posted by: Moonbat_One on June 11, 2004 12:12 PM

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Batshit,

I am not responsible for what Saddam did. I as a citizen am responsible for what Bush did.

Posted by: SW on June 11, 2004 12:20 PM

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David, you can take the charge of "smug moralizing" and stick up your ass.Morally, torture is torture. I don't give a shit whether it's men, women or children. Most Americans who have kids will be sickened and repulsed, just like a random murder of a child you might read about in the paper is somehow more troubling than when someone's Uncle Ralph is wacked. My concern about the torturing of Iraq children only extends so far as it would precipitate the downfall of these murdering bastards in Washington, and finally make these flag waving "support our troops" cocksuckers to start to experience some introspection.It's about time the US be honest about our history. What's happening in Iraq is no aberration.

Posted by: ChiBob on June 11, 2004 01:02 PM

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>>>I don't think anyone here has written that they would only become concerned about the current torture issue when it became clear that children were among the victims.

You stated your knees would buckle when a video was presented to you showing such actions. Yes?

"When", so stated, is not to here denote by inference "only when"? "At such time as"?

You can perhaps see my perplexity. This construction generally stands in opposition to 'current time'. Or, if you like, current physical position. Again by usage with to sentence subject: to imply current state of belief.

Possibly you mean us to understand you lie already prone upon the ground. Buckled knees' from that position presents a poorer rhetorical flourish, so I had assumed not.


>>The smug moralizing self satisfaction of some on the "left" is quite astonishing.


And a gracious good day to you too.

Posted by: Zach on June 11, 2004 01:19 PM

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>>>I don't think anyone here has written that they would only become concerned about the current torture issue when it became clear that children were among the victims.

quote:

I have been a supporter of Bush all along, but if I saw proof that our military was engaged in the abuse of children as policy, I would drop Bush in a heart beat.
Posted by: d smith on June 10, 2004 09:15 PM

Posted by: m on June 11, 2004 01:26 PM

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ok, one person, and a Bush supporter at that. However, if you read d smith's text closely, m, you'll find that there's nothing there about becoming newly concerned. I think you are reading your own sense of moral superiority into what others have written.

to Zach, you are not perplexed, just being inattentive and obtuse. I would find evidence (not solely "video" evidence, as I stated) of abuse of children enormously and uniquely disturbing (a metaphor for that: my knees would buckle) -- I'm sorry I didn't spell out for you or the other administrators of assorted litmus tests my assorted levels of disgust and concern regarding what we've seen to date, and regarding the many historical incidents of brutal behavior by Americans. It's this need by many on the "left" to parse every statement for ideological and moral sufficiency that is so amusingly offputting for me -- zach's tortured sentences are as fine an example as any

Posted by: David on June 11, 2004 01:59 PM

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This is not Sy Hersh's story. The story came to him. The story continues to move forward as the core people within defence/military/intel push it forward. There are many many high ranking unhappy people who are not going to blow their careers, by accepting the blame for orders they followed, so that bush can have another 4 years. Sy happens to have a good view of the inside relative to others, but he is by no means the fulcrum in pushing it forward, he is just one of many. Bush and co are being ripped out root and branch. They have been given a 5 day stay for the sake of Reagan, by sunset tonight its over.

Do no confuse the Moron's certainty on Russert for evidence of a fix. "The Moron" and others are on happy drug regimens that help them sleep and live with the consequences of their decisions. Where people like Nixon manifested psychosis in the later stages of severe guilt and depression, and clinton emoted, the Bush people tend to completely negate their questioning side through the wonders of medication. Every wonder how Rush Limbaugh can be so zealous and committed sounding day after day? Its called oxy cotin. Many of our biggest partisans are on designed regimens of various and assundary. It is these drugs that prevent them from listening to the internal dialogs and feelings that would permit compromise and self reflection. And is also what bolsters the near psychotic conviction of their own correctness in the face of the obvious looming catostrophe.

Posted by: patience on June 11, 2004 03:03 PM

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You know, the American press is way behind the rest of the world in reporting what's going on in America. These posts prove it: why is everybody focusing on these torture incidents, and not talking about the well-documented disappearance of 3,000 Taliban fighters under American military control in Western Afghanistan at the end of the war there? (Want details? How about hundreds of men packed into 18-wheeler trucks and driven over several days across the desert in blistering heat; when they begged for ventilation because they were suffocating, the Afghan coalition allies machine-gunned the trucks to provide air-holes--with the men still inside. This was on the way to the killing fields.) The United Nations knows about this massacre and wants to investigate it--among other things to determine whether it was actually American troops who slaughtered the men, or whether they just turned a blind eye while the local warlords did it--but the United States will not guarantee the safety of any U.N. inspectors in Western Afghanistan. This is old news in Canada, there've been documentaries by respectable news agencies about it aired on national TV since last year. So why does it seem that you guys aren't aware of it?
As to people being disappeared, a major major scandal in Canada right now is the Maher Arar affair: where the Bush administration took an innocent Canadian citizen off a connecting flight bound for Canada, which happened to be pausing in the U.S., disappeared him and as it later turned out shipped him off to Syria, where he was systematically tortured for the next year. We got him back. But with no help or explanation from U.S. authorities. Maher Arar is now a very angry man, and a very vocal one, too. His is another story you should be following... if you're willing to pay attention to the news from sources outside the U.S.

Posted by: A Canadian on June 11, 2004 05:37 PM

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1) what infantry attacks? the majority of attacks in Iraq are ambushes conducted by onesies and twosies, not major operations which require the use of heavy systems. the notable exception is al sadr's militia, but again that's the exception. to add DU to your laundry list of claims is pretty ridiculous


2) it's quite amusing how you claim that i somehow think of you as some sort of "commie". but i do accuse the majority of you have an arrogance of the most perverse type. from reading many of the posts made you people are so convinced of your own intellectual superiority that anyone who disagrees with you is obviously an illiterate chimp. the fact that anyone would spend their freetime perusing the website of an economist should be enough to separate you from such delusions, but sadly that is not the case.

3) re. historical use of the geneva conventions and POW: keep in mind the nature of the enemy we are fighting. the conscripts of the 1991 iraqi army most certainly did not want to fight and would have surrendered regardless of our prior history. we are not fighting the germans now who would be willing to surrender in order to enjoy our club med POW camps set up in the midwest. our enemies nowadays are of an entirely different breed then those that we have previously fought. this does not necessarily condone the use of torture, however it does brush aside the argument that the treatment of prisoners in captivity is in any way connected with their willingness to surrender. i mean, in the march up to baghdad, enemy insurgents would quite literally attack an armored column with a single pickup truck or on bicycle. if you think that the mentality that could allow this to happen is even remotely concerned about treatment in captivity, then you are sadly confused about the nature of our enemy.

4) re. stress positions, "unsevere beatings"

stress positions are basically the same type of positions that you might see in those old school movies regarding punishment in private schools. being told to sit in "the thinker" position for hours at a time, or having to crouch in weird ways. unsevere beatings refers to being able to slap people with an open hand across the face, but not with a closed. there is absolutely nothing new with these techniques as they have been used worldwide for quite some time. so, if you have a problem with these methods, well, that's your right. however keep in mind that it would however be wrong to ascribe such methods solely to the bush administration, as the techniques predate him by quite some time.


the irony is that many of the posters here manifest the type of personality which they supposedly abhor. a sense of moral superiority and total conviction of their own correctness that negates even the remotest possibility of them being wrong. if the continued survival of democracy in america is really such a concern of you all, then you would be well-advised to reconsider your own trains of thought.

what's really funny is that i have yet to identify any of my own politics or personal beliefs, rather just threw out thinking points. yet, so many people here are so used to leftist group-think that any contrary opinion or playing of devil's advocate must automatically make me some sort of reactionary bush lover

Posted by: Jon on June 11, 2004 05:51 PM

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I think that (as some have already alluded to) this type of horrendous behavior occurs in all wars. This is the reason that it is often the uniformed bigwigs who are the most reticent about going to war. God almighty, they must say, do not unleash these dogs for some frivolous reason.

It seems impossible to predict who is going to lose it and who won't. That little Lyndie person. Who could have predicted her behavior?? No wonder Powell so strongly advocated the so-called Powell Doctrine. The military has to be keep on a VERY tight leash, with a Very clear mission. And do Not skimp on the number you send in. We cannot leave anyone unsupervised.

Posted by: Abigail on June 11, 2004 05:59 PM

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I think that (as some have already alluded to) this type of horrendous behavior occurs in all wars. This is the reason that it is often the uniformed bigwigs who are the most reticent about going to war. God almighty, they must say, do not unleash these dogs for some frivolous reason.

It seems impossible to predict who is going to lose it and who won't. That little Lyndie person. Who could have predicted her behavior?? No wonder Powell so strongly advocated the so-called Powell Doctrine. The military has to be keep on a VERY tight leash, with a Very clear mission. And do Not skimp on the number you send in. We cannot leave anyone unsupervised.

Posted by: Abigail on June 11, 2004 06:01 PM

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Jon posts: so, if you have a problem with these methods, well, that's your right. however keep in mind that it would however be wrong to ascribe such methods solely to the bush administration, as the techniques predate him by quite some time.

I don't ascribe these methods solely to the Bushies. I merely point out that they are lying lousy hypocrites for denying that they ordered low-level grunts to carry out these tortures, and that they are responsible for their acts of torture no matter who else may have tortured in the past. They're torturing in my name since I'm a citizen of this country, and I want it stopped, and I don't give a flying fart if it's an innocent small child or Osama Bin Laden himself, I want it stopped! And you, Jon, can take your right-wing groupthink -- if "thinking" is something you're capable of, which I doubt -- and stuff it.

Posted by: Temperance on June 11, 2004 06:15 PM

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A truly brilliant post by temperance proving exactly what i had claimed earlier; that many of the people here are so convinced of their own sense of intellectual superiority that anyone who disagrees with them is obviously not capable of thinking

Posted by: Jon on June 11, 2004 06:21 PM

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They're just going by the evidence presented, Jon boy.

Posted by: Jimbo on June 11, 2004 07:40 PM

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Abigail wrote, "That little Lyndie person. Who could have predicted her behavior??"

IIRC she told people before going to Iraq that she wanted vengence for 9-11.

Posted by: liberal on June 11, 2004 07:42 PM

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Abigail wrote, "That little Lyndie person. Who could have predicted her behavior??"

IIRC she told people before going to Iraq that she wanted vengence for 9-11.

Posted by: liberal on June 11, 2004 07:43 PM

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patience:

Very nice and spooky points, but the "various and assundry" that "bolsters the near psychotic conviction of their own correctness in the face of the obvious looming catostrophe" doesn't explain the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

Or if it does, the Secretary of Defense stuff is weird enough I'd almost want to try it for a day. Just for the experience.


Posted by: virtue? on June 11, 2004 08:14 PM

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"A truly brilliant post by temperance proving exactly what i had claimed earlier; that many of the people here are so convinced of their own sense of intellectual superiority that anyone who disagrees with them is obviously not capable of thinking"

Jon,
Why the personal attacks? Where is the argument?

Posted by: SixFootPole on June 11, 2004 08:43 PM

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interesting how you accuse me of personal attacks yet say nothing of temperance. i made the claim that many of you on this board are so convinced of your rightness that you cannot even imagine that any of intelligence could ever think otherwise. A controversial stance, but one that has occured time and again through history. And this somehow is a personal attack while someone claiming that i'm incapable of thought is not?

Posted by: Jon on June 11, 2004 08:48 PM

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Can we drop this? I'm honestly interested in the arguments. I'm sorry for my part in making it personal.

Posted by: SixFootPole on June 11, 2004 09:03 PM

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>I wonder how much longer it will >
>take for the US to earn back the
>'moral leadership' position ceded >
>by the Bush administration's
>reckless foreign policy.

There has been a poll in Germany after the started that showed how dramatically this event changed the way Germans perceived America. Up till this point a solid majority regarded America as a role model that should be emulated. After the war started a solid majority answered that they agree that America is no longer a role model.

Since then the perceiption of the USA has darkedned further mixed in with some "Schadenfreude" that even America is not save from falling from grace and overshadowed by some real fear for when this fall is going to come to a halt.

Posted by: quax on June 11, 2004 09:17 PM

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This is a personal exposition from an American who has long been against the war and Bush. Please don't think I'm saying this to excuse myself. Quite the opposite is true. What truly upsets me about the arguments here is that, in fact, there *is* something positive about them that should be encouraged, not drowned in ideological sniping or personal attacks.

I'm sorry, that came out accusatory, and it wasn't meant to be. I'll try to be more clear. On *both* sides of the fence, above, are examples of people (Americans and others) stating that they are in the process of re-examining their positions based on new information coming to light. Others are realizing that their long-held concern has been correct, but that they have not matched actions to their worries or even their words.

Yes, some may have started from (or even remain in) an ideological position you dislike, or detest. However, I'd like to exhort all here to remember one thing - unless we all *think*, and *pay attention*, and examine not only the 'evidence' and 'information' coming from media and other sources, but examine our own thoughts, feelings and ideas on the matter - then we've already lost what may be the most important fight. That is the fight to remain the United States of America - not a 'morally superior America,' not a 'feared America,' not a 'responsible' America, or even a 'secure America.' It is fairly clear that all of those things have fallen away in the minds of many people here and around the world.

But what made the United States wonderful - and what has made many other nations wonderful institutions in the past, I'm not claiming we invented this - is the capability to *LEARN* and *CHANGE.*

Even if you think that the Bush administration is on the right course, even if you think that this is a 'left wing circle jerk,' I ask you (as an American) to try, please, to retain your sense of civic responsibility. The one that our country's founders had in such great quantity. NEVER ALLOW YOUR GOVERNMENT TO THINK IT IS ABOVE ITS PEOPLE. Never allow those *in* the U.S. Government to think that they are 'above' the rules which placed them there.

After all, if the liberals are wrong, then truth will out. Why? Because you, as a supporter of the administration, should be carefully watching *everything* with firm attention. Watch the left, and watch the right. Watch the press. Don't take anything for granted. THINK. If the liberals (yes, I am one) are in fact trying to take down an administration unjustly, then LOOK AT EVERYTHING and try to prove it. Don't try to tear down the liberals for trying it; they're doing their *JOB*. The attempted impeachment of Bill Clinton was something that infuriated the liberal establishment, such as it is in this country, but I (personally) feel an opportunity was missed, in the fury - the chance to try to rise above 'not-me' and reach 'us.' Whatever we thought about the attempt to impeach Clinton, more of us should not have tried to counterbash the Right by claiming they were simply playing 'partisan politics.' That's their role as citizens and members of a party. Our job was, and we blew it, to try to take our opponents to the table and say (essentially) "Okay. You have these things you say have been done that are wrong. We want to sit down here now, and define what, really, would qualify as impeachable - what was breaking the law. And then, together, in teams, we need to go look for everything. If, after *that* process, we are going to deadlock on if something was right or wrong - let's at least agree to have a common view of what we can establish happened.

I'm sorry, I'm straying. I'll wrap up here shortly. I realize that the United States has some unbelievable work ahead of it to regain the trust of the rest of the world, should that be something the US decides it wants (and I'm for it). I would ask that:

- Those who are not Americans, and are watching us, urge us to take responsibility for our own nation and have real civil oversight. If after the paroxysm of democracy that is surely coming, you feel we have not gone far enough - that's your opinion. Tell us then. In the meantime, whenever an American tells you in open forum that they are having doubts, or changing their mind - don't bash us for where we started out. Help us learn to change our minds, to strive for the truth. There are good people in this country; I (PERSONAL BELIEF) think that most people here are simply average humans making their choices influenced by their surroundings, and are not 'evil.' I don't even really know what those are, in truth, good and evil. But I do know that I'd rather be in this kind of mess because I made a mistake than because I didn't try or do anything at all, and hid my head in the sand.

To all sides of the debate, liberals, conservatives - don't bash each other for our starting positions. Do whatever you can, please, to encourage everybody, on all sides, to push for full disclosure of what happened 'in our name' and for full punishments or rewards for those who deserve it. Reach out to those who tell you they are wavering in their 'faith' or their commitment to one side - because those are the ones who are *thinking.* Those are the people performing their duty as citizens. They are paying attention and accepting data.

Not everyone is 'swinging' of course. To the liberals who are digging in their heels - it doesn't *matter* if you were right earlier. It doesn't make you better. It makes you uniquely positioned to try to convince the other side that these flutterings they feel are the right thing. Even if a conservative or neocon tells you that they are flatly behind the President, that's their right. Ask them if they are interested in a full disclosure of what happened at Abu Ghraib. Convince them that while loyalty to the President is not a bad thing in itself, loyalty to a President, or a nation, or a person *without the acceptance of constant new information and the analysis of that information* is indeed a bad thing - it is an obsession, not a position.

I'm sorry to go on so long. I thank everyone here who has made an effort to ensure that the facts come out - and everyone here who is doing what they feel is best for the United States, so long as they are doing it because they feel their own position, viewed in a vacuum (i.e. not compared to the other side) is a 'right' or 'proper' one.

We're never all going to agree on what we should do. That's what makes us American. Let's try to agree that we need to be Americans, and that we need to take up the reins and responsibility that our founders and our predecessors and our teachers, who after all came from all over the world, left in our hands.

Thank you.

Posted by: The Custodian on June 11, 2004 10:16 PM

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Custodian, you need to take a side... NOW. You need to start some inflamatory talk to get everyone riled. It's the only way.. it's now the American way. Get with the program and offend somebody with a cold, narrow statement.

Posted by: Cowicide on June 12, 2004 12:01 AM

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have you written your congressman?

have you gone to washington and protested?

Jon, have you opened your eyes?

anyone who tries to diminish in any way the actions (those 'publicly' observable alone) of this adminisatration -- never mind any other -- must be in denial, or themselves on the fringe of illness.

People like you and I, tortured... stripped naked, nipped at by large dogs, powerless and frightened, raped, beaten, sleep-deprived, pain-inflicted...

Get over yourselves. Act or shuttup. Open your eyes, or go away. This nation is becoming the new Nazi Germany, an enemy of the world. During the rise of the Nazi party, the *majority* of good Germans, who didn't subscribe to Hitler's madness, who were cowed and intimidated, remained silent. We see what resulted.

It was their son's who died in the mad wars that followed...

It was their children who tortured and flicked the switches on the ovens at Auschwitz. Do you believe our nation incapable of such horror? Would you think the Jews of Isreal incapable, knowing what they suffered, and yet, witness how they behave toward the Palestinians in the name of "National Security"...

Wake up. Smell the blood and treachery. Today, that is the reality.

Why, with such crimes paraded before us, can this president still be in office, without a public threat of impeachment? Because, just like in 1939, we are in deep, terrible trouble. Only this time, it's our nation...

Patriot act... "Homeland" (a word not institutionally used by any western country since Nazi Germany), "with us or against us", "it is unpatriotic to question the president in a time of war"...

all repeats of history.

Stand up. Shout where it can be heard. Make yourself known, and sacrifice without fear. That's my opinion. That's patriotism. That's what this nation needs to return from this horrible brink.

peace.....

Posted by: Cowardice on June 12, 2004 12:47 AM

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I'm reading "Why I'm Not A Christian" by Bertrand Russel for the first time and the first 40 pages made me almost cry...we are a country run by sadistic religous nut bags...How can we still be this far behind???

Who is dumming us down? Makes me want to start reading those tin- foil hat guys talking about reptials.

The war to Iraq was nothing but racists blowing off steam??

Does it come down to...

Wanting the Iraqi [insurgents] freedom fighting patriots to succeed???

Are the neo-cons jealous that the Muslims have kept their family values together and we have not ? What is that called?

Posted by: Beth on June 12, 2004 12:59 AM

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Custodian,

I found your post above uplifting and an encouragement of dialogue. Me, being from Sweden, thinks dialouge is what is missing in the US today. Instead of dialouge there is a profound mistrust between and demonization of between people of opposing views. How has it come to this? And the people thrives on it. Watching America recently (the past 3 years) has almost been like watching a fight to the death between to combattants in the old crumbling arena of the ancient Colloseum.

If you, within the US, dismiss each other in that pack-mentality it's no wonder how the oppinions of the UN and Europe similarily is seen as irrelevant. Not to mention how easily most of you thrived on that French-bashing.

You give me hope though, seamingly reaching out.

Yet, the comment

"We're never all going to agree on what we
should do. That's what makes us American.
Let's try to agree that we need to be
Americans"

disappointed me.

What makes you American is the fact that you are a citizen of the US. Full stop. The fact that we all have different opinions makes us human.

Your contention "we need to be Americans" is a form of nationalism that alienates the rest of the world. Letting go of that would go a long way in improving relations.

Posted by: Mike on June 12, 2004 09:48 AM

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SixFoot, there's a difference between a comment and a personal attack. For example, " And you, Jon, can take your right-wing groupthink -- if "thinking" is something you're capable of, which I doubt -- and stuff it." is a personal attack, just as is "They're just going by the evidence presented, Jon boy", whereas "A truly brilliant post by temperance proving exactly what i had claimed earlier" most assuredly is not.

It is a bit disheartening to see how diverging arguments -- even when civil, clear, logical, and aptly articulated -- are met by spitting and shrieking and yes, smug moralizing.

Get it into you heads, my friends:
1. What you've seen is nasty but not torture.
2. There is no way to avoid at least some of it in war (unless you're willing to lose your people -- and the war itself.)
3. No matter how many detainees have been "abused", we are ten orders of magnitude better than anyone else would be in a similar situation. I especially like the european/French "smug moralizing" as I was just finishing Paul Aussaresses' memoir before the "abuse" reports surfaced. I also recommend to peruse Alexander del Valle's articles (http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/)

Posted by: blitzkried on June 12, 2004 09:55 AM

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"3. No matter how many detainees have been "abused", we are ten orders of magnitude better than anyone else would be in a similar situation."

(a) Without knowing the counterfactual, this is pure speculation.
(b) Since the Bush administration deliberately maneuvered itself into that "situation" (I suppose you are referring to the war in Iraq), it bears the full responsibility for both positive and negative consequences of their decision. Therefore, it does not matter at all whether anybody else would have behaved better or worse in those circumstances.

Posted by: konrad on June 12, 2004 11:01 AM

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Blitzkried,

1. I agree with you on some points. For instance, I don't think stress postures and being subjected to loud music qualifies as torture. But, what you or I think doesn't really matter. Consider: a). According to the Geneva Conventions, such treatment of prisoners *is* torture. b). The U.S. agreed to abide by the Conventions, thereby adopting the Conventions' definitions as its own. I draw the conclusion that what was done at Abu Ghraib qualifies as torture according to the definitions the U.S freely choose to accept. Anyone who authorized violating the Conventions is guilty of war crimes.

2. Again, I sympathize with your view-point, but just because war crimes are inevitable, doesn't mean the U.S. gov't is justified in authorizing them. Quite the contrary, we are duty-bound to try even harder to avoid them.

As for the implication that torturing/abusing prisoners is sometimes necessary to save lives or win wars, I don't believe your argument has merit. I intend to join the Air Force after I graduate college. If I'm ever a POW being tortured by my captors, I'm going to lie. Every chance I get. Especially if I know my lies will endanger enemy forces. Any Iraqis we've detained who have useful information probably feel the same way. Torture doesn't necessarily get good intel.

3. Again, I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. We may very well *be* "ten orders of magnitude better that anyone else wold be in a similar situation." (I wouldn't know.) But, that is not how we choose to evaluate the morality of our behavior in this country. Just being more moral than any other country is not enough when you're American. When you're an American, your actions have to pass muster according to the Constitution. The situation at Abu Ghraib is not in keeping with our Constitution or with the treaties (the Geneva Conventions being a prominent example) we've signed.

P.S. I can be a "smug moralist" at times though I try not to be. I hope I haven't offended you.

Posted by: Jaded on June 12, 2004 02:20 PM

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Mike-

I accept your criticism. Let me reiterate, and this time try to say more clearly what I mean. We're never going to agree on what we need to do; if we did, we wouldn't be Americans. What makes us Americans (in the strict sense, in the context of our Constitution) is that in the end, we will (I hope) take action as a nation without instead tearing that nation apart. Accepting the outcome of the system, and rather than resorting to evading the system, working to change it within the rules, if necessary. We can do that; the writers of our Constitution provided for it. The Constitution itself can be changed, or even nullified, if the proper set of rules is followed. Sure, it's not *easy* - but that's the point.

During the last election, even though the situation in Florida made me hideously angry, I remain proud of my countrymen that in the end, the matter was decided by the courts, as the Constitution instructs, rather than by force of arms or the loudest voice. I may not agree with the decision of that court, nor may many of my fellow citizens, but the reason we are still citizens of an existing nation is because we abided with its decision and instead of declaring the system null and void, went to work on making sure the *next* time would go more smoothly.

We had no real way of knowing what the winner of that contest would get us into; and hence, any attempt to remove the official winner of that contest from office at that time based on *predicted* behavior would not even be justifiable to me.

As for your other point, no, what makes me American (to me) is not simply that I am a citizen of the United States of America. That attitude is little more than blind loyalty to my birthplace, or blind identification at least. What makes me American (again, to me) is that I have a philosophical tie to the Constitution and the system of government and civic order that it linchpins (Hm, hope that's a verb!)

I don't say 'I am an American' in order to claim division from all those who are not, by accident of birth. I say that to affirm my dedication to the preservation and improvement of the society my predecessors here tried to build, in the main - despite the many attempted and accidental perversions, I still think it's one of the better experiments in social order. Yes, I realize this is colored by my inexperience with others.

In short, I consider my affection with the nation of my birth to be related to nostalgic sentimentality and (more importantly) to philosophical approval of its tenets, not to an exclusionary image of self-superiority. I consider myself lucky to be here.

Thank you for bringing me up short on that one. Like I said before, don't let us get complacent, self-aggrandizing, or smug. Make us fix what we broke, and hopefully we will all be better off.

Cheers,

The Custodian

Posted by: The Custodian on June 12, 2004 03:25 PM

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Mike-

Sorry, forgot one very important thing. When I speak approvingly of my country and its people, I am not speaking approvingly of my country's *actions*, necessarily. In point of fact, I consider our civic duty to be unhappy with things our government does we don't like - because if we aren't willing to do that, and say it, and even sacrifice things to try to change it if we feel strongly enough, then it's already fallen apart.

TC

Posted by: The Custodian on June 12, 2004 03:32 PM

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how does the possibility of others being more depraved suddenly render the US *torture* somehow not depraved? if the base line for human decency has become not cutting off limbs, how much more sad can things get?

Posted by: quietkid on June 12, 2004 03:51 PM

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Beth -- "Are the neo-cons jealous that the Muslims have kept their family values together and we have not ? What is that called?"

What it's called is a patriarchal system; women as property and under the control of the dominant male, so to speak. Notwithstanding the lip service given to women's rights in the Koran, custom and the sharia dictate otherwise. It is also the postion of our own Christian fundamentalists. So watch out, the two have a lot in common in this area, and they really are intent on imposing their rules on all of society.

Family values is a conservative code phrase, not neocon, by the way. The neocon aberration is U.S. world domination. They see us in forever war, led by leaders (them) who know so much more than we silly sheep do.

Posted by: The Miller on June 12, 2004 09:58 PM

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Reagan Afterlife Update: Reagan still sucking Satan's cock: eternity - 1 week left to go.

Breaking Afterlife News: Its official! Upon Dubya's death, he will be teamed up with Reagan as he and Ron serve the their god-given sentence to double dog Satan for an eternity. Reagan will keep his position as satanic cocksucker, a role which he has performed more convincingly than any he ever played in Hollywood. Bush will be assigned to satanic ass fucking duties. Bush will also be expected to tickle Old Scratch's balls from behind, giving them the odd lick here and there as the opportunity arises.

That's what happens to bad people who suport murder and torture. For all you kiddies out there: take a lesson from the story of Ron and Dubya. Now you don't wanna end up permanently blowing Satan and/or having anal sex with him, do you? I didn't think so.

Posted by: The Fool on June 12, 2004 10:01 PM

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I didn't have time to even skim all the comments.

Some-a you are adults, but have not yet left childhood entirely. (Neither have I, which is how I can recognize the trait so easily.)

I was tortured on 9-11, like most everybody on the planet (for the first couple weeks).

Most have forgot. I, and many, have not.

:

I'm sorry this is the first look at the realities of war, for most-a you "children". I'm not going to defend the actions of those at Abu Ghraib, but will point out that it's against the Geneva Conventions to cut off the head of a civilian, whether it's videotaped or not.

There was a Lebanese man, reported yesterday, who was kidnapped with 2 other Lebanese. According to reports Friday or yesterday, he was brutally tortured and executed. I believe that report said his lifeless body was then further desecrated. According to reports today, he was merely shot. One escaped, and one is missing and I hate to think what became of him.

The French government has said that "under no circumstances" would it send troops to Iraq. Presumably, if Nick Berg had been a French view, their position would be unalterable, for political reasons against the British and U.S. more than anything, afaik.

:

I would put this entire issue to rest, quite simply.

All-a you, even the ignorant ones, should be allowed to vote on the following proposition, and it should be taken seriously. I do not propose this in jest, and believe the Iraqi People should actually vote on this matter.

We have an option here, which are mutually exclusive (so you vote for one, the other, or not at all):

alpha) Back the current Iraqi Government, backed by the Coalition Forces
gamma) Give Saddam Hussein his freedom and return him to power

My vote is for alpha.

Some would vote otherwise, but most-a all of us will actually do little more than just talk the talk, which is easy.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 07:54 AM

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"What it's called is a patriarchal system; women as property and under the control of the dominant male, so to speak. Notwithstanding the lip service given to women's rights in the Koran, custom and the sharia dictate otherwise. It is also the postion of our own Christian fundamentalists. So watch out, the two have a lot in common in this area, and they really are intent on imposing their rules on all of society."

"Family values is a conservative code phrase, not neocon, by the way. The neocon aberration is U.S. world domination. They see us in forever war, led by leaders (them) who know so much more than we silly sheep do."

Are you either Muslim or Christian, "The Miller"?

I didn't think so, which is how you can SO easily pervert their values into whatever-fucked-up-shit you wanna make them out to be..

..to make your fucking political point.

I seriously doubt I'll be replying any more on this thread, and probably wouldn't-a wasted this much time if I'd see HOW ignorant the views being expressed here were.

(Btw, meant "French Jew", hopefully obviously as Intermittant-Alzheimer's-Taurrets apparently set in. Sheesh...)-;

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 08:02 AM

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I "lied" above, because I'm commenting yet again.

"Your contention 'we need to be Americans' is a form of nationalism that alienates the rest of the world. Letting go of that would go a long way in improving relations."

So, since I'm understanding your view correctly as THE most-hypocritical view "possible" (I'm sure there are worse, actually):

So you'd also be in favor of scum like yourself letting go of your putrid view that you need (since you are) and MUST EXPRESS your non-American/anti-American views??

You in favor of that also, somehow, commenter-named-Mike?

You got one part right. That WOULD go a long way, "friend".


Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 08:42 AM

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show us the pictures, worse things have happened. dubya thinks they are disgusting, lets us decide for ourselves.

sy hersh, well done

Posted by: bubba on June 13, 2004 11:17 AM

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I never watched a snuff film.

So skipped the Nick Berg films you all saw. Noticed a young-11-year-old-girl, a murderer from Japan, almost certainly either directly saw or heard about.

She slit her classmates throat, and then apologized... She'll go to reform school for a couple years.

I already know what disgusting is, without seeing it.

War is disgusting, as is cold-blooded murder, bubba...

When ya gonna decide to see reality? (Probably never, because you hafta learn to discern.)

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 11:22 AM

____

General Glut on June 11, 2004 08:09 AM's post is right on. Good piece! Chi Bob, loved yours too. Great posts here, and I see the occassionally dittomonkey throws in his typical 2 cents worth of fertilizer.

Toran ... I love ditto monkies, really I do...

Custodian: You workin too hard man, people can see right through that shit. Let me show ya what i'm talkin about. When I read your post, "it made me feel good". Here's the problem. Sure, you and I are Americans, but here's the diff. I, like many Muslim's around the world, are getting very tired of having a hugh western-cirumcised lying captilistic facist c*** up their ass.

Last I remember it was "...what's good for the hive, is good for the bee..." not the other way around. Equity, diplomacy, unity, cooperation, these are the qualities that are needed. War is for the facists.

We have a lying - Treasonous administration in office, and an un-ending War in sight, it is time to take action, and bring down this tyrannical right wing crime family to its knees --

Bush is toast, or we are toast...

Posted by: Khoka on June 13, 2004 11:37 AM

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Khoka,

You shameless slut!

You're not only an idiot, but a rude and uncreative idiot. The latter is unforgivable!!

General Glut you're hero?

"Killing an enemy in a prison is worse than killing him on the battlefield.

Killing a child is worse than killing an adult."

How stupid can you get.

Neither one is worse for the person killed, obviously.

"Equity, diplomacy, unity, cooperation, these are the qualities that are needed."

Say wha?!? You mean like you exhibit in this very post, Khoha?

"Equity, diplomacy, unity, cooperation, these are the qualities that are needed."

And you're a word-fascist, Khoha, as you illustrate very well.. and a sick joke to boot.

Your brain is toast either way, slut!!


Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 01:02 PM

____

I would put this entire issue to rest, quite simply.

All-a you, even the ignorant ones, should be allowed to vote on the following proposition, and it should be taken seriously. I do not propose this in jest, and believe the Iraqi People should actually vote on this matter.

We have an option here, which are mutually exclusive (so you vote for one, the other, or not at all):

alpha) Back the current Iraqi Government, backed by the Coalition Forces
gamma) Give Saddam Hussein his freedom and return him to power

I move to disqualify the votes of bubba and Khola, for option gamma, for (to me) obvious reasons.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 01:04 PM

____

Wingnuts on acid! Non-American/anti-american views? Such as "we are Americans, and should be above breaking the law?" Or "we are Americans, and should prosecute those breaking the law"? Those won't work for Jon and Toran, so how about "we are good Germans", or "we wuz only following orders" (won't work for preznit and Rumsfailed, though).

Posted by: Ronjazz on June 13, 2004 01:25 PM

____

Excuse me, Jazzman...

You must necessarily pervert what I've said through your own perverted inference-engine into your own perverted assessment.

Necessarily, because if you think I don't want those assholes responsible for Abu Ghraib found, tried, and punished..

..well, you are not quoting my views, you ignorant slut!!

Btw, you must be a blogger.

Read the news, and you'll see that those responsible ARE being found, tried, and put in prison/court-martialed.

It may go as high as Rumsfeld, I'm undecided on that. Wolfowitz, imo/o (in my opinion/observation) is probably a "responsible party". Because he's been the guy Rumsfeld has been listening to, all this time (since '91).

Btw, which one-a you is responsible for tracking down al Zarqiwi and al Sadr, speaking of which?

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 01:33 PM

____

hey,
These are defining times for the "nation". But before anyone gets too carried away with disbelief and what we view as the Bush/Reagan administrations lack of ethics. I would encourage you to read the book Bury MY Heart at Wounded Knee. If you have already read it, read it again. It clearly illustrates that this "country" was conceived through acts of terrorism. That this has ALWAYS been a means to an end when push comes to shove for the military of this "great nation". One simple and horrific example is members of the U.S. cavalry cutting out the labias of native women and stretching them over their hats for hatbands. Do any of you really believe that just because we live in this "day and age" that the military as well as the general population are free of this mentality? Just look at what passes for cultural values in this culture via TV and the net.

Shortly after 9-11 a middle east columnist(sorry don't recall his name or country) stated: "America is finally getting to taste some of the bread she's been baking".

If the prison BS come as a surprise to you it may be time to wake up because it is definitely nothing new. Don't pretend that those pushing this agenda see you as fellow countrymen, for they would do the same to anyone standing in their way. It's going to get alot worse before it gets any better. You think John Kerry is going to change it? HA!

Posted by: RR on June 13, 2004 02:00 PM

____

"Do any of you really believe that just because we live in this "day and age" that the military as well as the general population are free of this mentality?"

Speak for yourself. The fact is that you ARE speaking for yourself only.

"One simple and horrific example is members of the U.S. cavalry cutting out the labias of native women and stretching them over their hats for hatbands."

You recall what Indians did with the scalps of their enemy, right?

"Shortly after 9-11 a middle east columnist(sorry don't recall his name or country) stated: 'America is finally getting to taste some of the bread she's been baking'."

Funny I'm able to detect a bias, but you aren't "RR".

And there's enough self-hatred floating through all cultures, just as there always has been throughout the millenia, for this to play.

For some.

"Don't pretend that those pushing this agenda see you as fellow countrymen, for they would do the same to anyone standing in their way."

If you are a LEGAL citizen, or a LEGAL immigrant, then you are unfortunately my countryman.

Again, speak for yourself as to what you would do.

I would do otherwise than what you wanna CLAIM I'd do.

"It's going to get alot worse before it gets any better. You think John Kerry is going to change it? HA!"

Perhaps. Dunno Kerry's gonna be elected yet, are you precient?

Change cannot be prevented, of course.

The direction is somewhat correctable, but not by thinking/feeling/intuiting of the nature expressed here RR, I would grok obviously.

Btw, anybody catch the hilarious antics of Khoka who calls me a "ditto-head"!!

Catch his or her identifying link, above!

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 02:20 PM

____

Dilbert wrote:

>I had always wondered what the Jews in Germany felt like 1933 to 1938. I am begining to get the feel.
Where could one live that would be outside the reach of the upcoming Bush second term?>

Great question. It moved me to look up how many Jews left Germany before 1939 (around 50% .

It made me wonder, what would be the thing that would push you to leave the U.S.? What would be your Kristallnacht.

Mine probably would be the arrest of someone I knew under the USA Patriot Act or some similar law.

Posted by: WorldTraveler on June 13, 2004 04:36 PM

____

Silly points, really. Everybody knows that slapping a person in the face is wrong, as is subjecting them to "stress" tactics, as it is to kick a dog. Everybody knows these things are wrong, it's just the degree to which you are able to justify them that seperates people. As a defense, all these things may be justifiably right, but not as an aggressor. I'll change my opinion about that just as soon as I get a list of exactly what earth-shattering information is getting derived from abusing other people, and exactly what it's application was and how life or death extracting that information was. We need ordinary military people to torture people in order to get information that the magic people in the US were able to make appear out of thin air regarding WMD? I say let the magicians wave their hands a little harder and spare the torture. That is, unless people are actually enjoying torturing people. Because those are the kinds of people that have no concept of right and wrong. Sadistic people will find any outlet, even starting a supposed war with no evidence, and dragging it out forever. We would never do that, would we? Oh, it's disturbing what people will believe when they really want to. We are a pathological nation led by a co-dependent.
Pretty sad, really.

Posted by: Diggerdog on June 13, 2004 05:24 PM

____

I have long since gone past looking at what the German Jews felt like.. Long, long ago, in fact...

Both Grandparents on Dad's side were Russian Jews who got to Ellis Island around 1905, best I can gather. (My Dad, being Atheist, left some of the culture outta our grasp, as I didn't even find THIS out until I was about 19.)

"Mine probably would be the arrest of someone I knew under the USA Patriot Act or some similar law."

You're parents probably left you in better shape than mine did, apparently, Mr. or Ms. WorldTraveler.

No, when your "friends" Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols got done with me and there was NOTHING REMOTELY RESEMBLING a "Patriot" Act..

..well, I guess my fate was sealed then.

Lucky your's idn't, until later-on when the terrorists of different, but akin stripes, come for you, fooker...)-;

Good luck in your travels, until then, "friend", and thanks for the advice.


Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 05:29 PM

____

Why don't you give your Dogs a spell.

"Oh, it's disturbing what people will believe when they really want to."

>>> Yes, it is.

"We are a pathological nation"

>>> Funny, as I agree on that also.

"led by a co-dependent.

Pretty sad, really."

Hmmmmmm... I discern a difference, and then more agreement.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 05:50 PM

____

J. Toran et al are proof that America is corrupt and evil. I for one am embarrassed that such sick, cowardly people lurk like impotent slugs on the dark lawn of the Internet. Who put Saddam Hussein in power in the first place? the CIA. Who gave him chemical weapons? The US and our allies. Who taught them how to use them and gave them weather reports to make them more effective? The US. Who gave similar weapons to Iran? The Reagan administration. Who uses race as a criterion for establishing systems of abuse, murder, torture, and genocide? The US. Who was responsible for supporting murderous right wing governments and genocide? The US. WE should be better than that. J. Toran, Jon, and your sick sadistic ilk should go back to autoerotic self asphyxiation like your homosexual ritual fantasy object GW Bush, whose sole reason for existence is to give Muammar Khaddafy some reference point when someone asks him, who is worse than you? Bush. Reagan. Nixon. Genocidal power mad sociopaths with deep personal issues they must project on the rest of the world.

Posted by: bigfoot on June 13, 2004 05:51 PM

____

"bigfoot"

I heard your motto is that of Yosemite Sam:

"Speak LOUDLY...!!!"

"'N carry a BIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGER STICK...!!!!!"

Your information is slightly dated.

Turns out, but nobody knew until we actually got on the ground and into Iraq:

The black-market in nuclear's and all this other stuff largely came from further east.

What galls me is that this very post can be read by 8 to 10 year-olds... ALL ACROSS this vast globe...)-;

Uh, oh... Speaking of FOO birds...

"If you haven't been riding in that C-141, or lived expatriate for enough years to become part of a foreign community, especially an outback rural community with communal values, then you can't possibly imagine what it's like to come back to Corporate-State America with eyes clear, ears open . . . and stomach heaving."

Yeah, there are cases where you should go back where ya came from.

I speak in my name only, but here in Columbus; Ohio (blech on some-a THEIR Laws, too...)-; on the "GREATEST" land on the planet, the US of A on; Earth..

But I can't help but notice how prevalent your view is amongst expatriats and ill-fitting-into-THEIR-preferred-Society ilk, and such.

Look, man...

If I could undo a lotta things, I would...

(I can't say this ENOUGH: If I could undo the past, show me how and I'll be the first to volunteer... ...)

But then I'd land back poor-white-trash-Preacher in Kentucky around mid-1800's eventually, m'self. .. ... So it was my fault, again.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 06:18 PM

____

I would like to chime in and remind everyone that blaming Bush for all of this is entirely inane. Both party's voted for the Patriot Act and both party seemly support the war. Both political party's are guilty of not investigating any of what's going on with the war on terror or the war in Iraq. Lets bear this in mind when you start throwing around statements like "that wacko in the White House".

Attention Left Wing Bloggers: We of the rational right (former libertarian leaning members of the Republican Party) know that the Republican Party has lost it's collective mind. Be part of the solution and please continously point out that the Democrats have been guilty just by not questioning any of this. If the Democrats win, it will be the same policy's in place with a new smiling head explaining how any of this makes sense to we the humble masses.

No one has any clue who is really pulling the strings of either of these two party's. It's time we start demanding MORE from everyone we cast a vote for.... And not accepting the lessor of two evils.

Posted by: Rob on June 13, 2004 07:29 PM

____

I'm sorry, because I enjoy a lotta the sentiment, but this blatently false, as well as self-exalting and self-contradictory:

"We of the rational right (former libertarian leaning members of the Republican Party)"

Also, "the Republican Party has lost it's collective mind."

I'm not Republican, so I can see more clearly in this regard. This would be part of the collective delusion I referred to over at Don Park's, few days back.

I notice your Libertarian roots coming out, at the end of the day. And:

"No one has any clue who is really pulling the strings of either of these two party's."

That would be the Naderites and Libertarians, mostly taking a whiff on taking over the Democratic Party, but not entirely.

You see, in the United States, it's still the people who trouble themselves to pull the trigger (in this case voting-lever).

Well, that was up until you all (the non-computer folks) decided to bring computers into the process, over mine and many others' all-too-mild objections, unfortunately.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 13, 2004 08:35 PM

____

>>It's just fucking pathetic. An entire nation's good name utterly destroyed in less than four years by one psychotic frat boy.
Posted by: SW on June 10, 2004 06:49 PM

...you thought you had a good name???

Posted by: lip on June 13, 2004 08:38 PM

____

The american people have themselves to blame for these atrocities. As long as the american dream is capitalistic consumption first and true democracy distant last, you can be assured that dictators like Bush will find a cozy home in the oval office. How many of you would quit your job to fight this government? Yeah, i thought so. So go buy your shit made in third world countries for slave wages and continue to talk and do nothing.

Posted by: Dilbert on June 13, 2004 10:29 PM

____

Bush talking to god scares me

Posted by: nixon on June 14, 2004 12:29 AM

____

CLINTON LIED NO ONE DIED- BUSH LIED PEOPLE DIED. NEED I TO SPELL IT FOR YOU?

Posted by: Fred on June 14, 2004 01:54 AM

____

I think what the word i was looking for was "projecting" like how shrub talks trash and says stuff like- "*they* hate us for our freedom". I think maybe conservatives hate brown people cause they have guts and try to stand up to the *man* and of course they are not yet good little capitalists- opps i mean democracies.

They wanted "shock and awe" -so they will reap the whirlwind. Too bad it's "u.s" that have to get caught up in it.

I'm seriouly thinking about giving up my citizenship...my leader cans the CIA guy but lets the head torturer {rummy} stay, how f-ed up is this??? nice message to the world.

Posted by: Beth on June 14, 2004 02:52 AM

____

Beth,

Please do. Go to a country where they don't hate you for the freedom we enjoy in this country. If you think conservatives hate brown people, then mebbe you're guilty of seeing people as "they", instead of how they are.

"As long as the american dream is capitalistic consumption first and true democracy distant last, you can be assured that dictators like Bush will find a cozy home in the oval office. How many of you would quit your job to fight this government?"

Capitalism has nothing to do with consumption, or do you understand as much about economics as I presume you understand about business management, "Dilbert".

Btw, I practically HAVE quit my job, but I've got other "battles".

Also, btw, you quit your job (getting fired doesn't count) or are you as hypocritical as you are anonymous?

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 05:28 AM

____

I still can't get over THAT one.

"Conservatives hate 'brown people.'"

Non-insightful is a euphemism. (How ya spell euphemism. Anyhoo, 'conservatives' is bad enough but 'brown people' is a GROSS over-generalization of "THEY", hypocrite. Unless you're brown, that is, which I somehow doubt.


Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 05:33 AM

____

Gotta laugh at the yanks on here claiming america has lost the moral high ground, sorry to wake you up from the slumber you've been in for 40 years, but america lost the moral high ground many many years ago.


It's just americans that never noticed...

Posted by: Bob Thom on June 14, 2004 05:48 AM

____

Segue to more evil :

A brief summary of US research into "ethnic weapons" : biological agents designed to target specific identifiable genetic subgroups.

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/33592#683757


Florida voter roll purge continues :

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/33583

US Presidential emergency powers include Reagan-era civilian labor camp program

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/33543#682603


Have a nice day.

Posted by: Troutfishing on June 14, 2004 07:15 AM

____

Dilbert only has it half right. While I concur that "Americans only have themselves to blame", the reason comes down to the twin demons of complacency and apathy. They let this regime march into power in 2000 without a whimper of disgust and it has all been downhill since. Clearly, this is the worst administration this nation has ever had to endure, and their parallels to 1930's Germany are astounding. Worst of all is the simple fact that as a citizen...as a voter...one has little choice.

Posted by: Cornelius Figgyfinn on June 14, 2004 07:35 AM

____

Dilbert only has it half right. While I concur that "Americans only have themselves to blame", the reason comes down to the twin demons of complacency and apathy. They let this regime march into power in 2000 without a whimper of disgust and it has all been downhill since. Clearly, this is the worst administration this nation has ever had to endure, and their parallels to 1930's Germany are astounding. Worst of all is the simple fact that as a citizen...as a voter...one has little choice.

Posted by: Cornelius Figgyfinn on June 14, 2004 07:35 AM

____

Dilbert only has it half right. While I concur that "Americans only have themselves to blame", the reason comes down to the twin demons of complacency and apathy. They let this regime march into power in 2000 without a whimper of disgust and it has all been downhill since. Clearly, this is the worst administration this nation has ever had to endure, and their parallels to 1930's Germany are astounding. Worst of all is the simple fact that as a citizen...as a voter...one has little choice.

Posted by: Cornelius Figgyfinn on June 14, 2004 07:36 AM

____

obey thy statistics... the US wiped out the whole male population of vietnam, and even more than that. this means that other asian males repopulated the region, and while they were at it, were considered as vietnamese and were killed. hence, a figure greater than what was expected.

yet i still couldn't figure out why the US backed out if all the homies were wiped out. the dudettes must've been fiercer.

there's a possibility that not all dudes died

Posted by: passerby on June 14, 2004 08:40 AM

____

"It's just americans that never noticed..."

Funny what NON-Americans notice, also, about America and themselves.

Iow, little. Anybody claiming "high moral ground", even if by pointing out who does NOT hold the high moral ground..

..well, they're generally low-life scum, in my experience, jes 'bout EVERY time... And it's this scum who never had ANY moral ground, let alone something approximating the high moral ground.. Well, read their replies above.

Glossing over the non-sequiters, and assuming "Cornelius Figgyfinn" is a psuedonym and more 'n a little "trigger happy" with the post button:

"They let this regime march into power in 2000 without a whimper of disgust and it has all been downhill since."

Dilbert don't know Bo...

That was the Democratic Party which DID muster a whimper of disgust, but then ole Bin let loose on 9-11 and that sort-a shut everybody up for a while.

Well, the talkers went on talkin', but thaz about it.

Again, if any of you know how to replay the 2000 election, I'd like-ta hear. Should be good for more laughs, just like the ignorant replies above!!

In the meantime..
..in between-time....

I got bills, so need to do SOME paying work. Sorry, but you all will have to provide the jokes and entertainment for a spell...

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 09:05 AM

____

But first, I can't take a pass on this lamer:

"CLINTON LIED NO ONE DIED- BUSH LIED PEOPLE DIED. NEED I TO SPELL IT FOR YOU?"

Speaking of spell:

Clinton was the Commander-in-Chief, but I dunno exactly how much a Commander-in-Chief is actually involved in "low-level" decisions.

He had the CIA or some-such negotiate with Bin Laden, back in '98, iirc. When that broke down, they launched a missile strike which killed some, but not ole Bin.

ANY-a you recall what happened after somebody (Reagan?, Carter?, Bush Sr.?) attempted to assassinate Quaddafy and killed some-a his family?? The Pan Am flight.

Well, I'm just-a guessing about motives, but I think 9-11 mebbe had jes a li'l to do with Clinton's failed assassination attempt.

Whadyathin'..?!? I mean.. Question to those CAPABLE of logic-at-the-same-time-as-thinking/feeling...

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 09:11 AM

____

Actually the best Rumsfeld article I have read on this topic was at

http://brainsnap.com/main/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17

do urge you to check it out, its funny in a sad sort of way.

Posted by: kris on June 14, 2004 09:32 AM

____

It's funny. The shell game continues. Republican versus Dem. White against Black. In essence, it's all about what it has always been about: the powerful versus the unwashed masses, the rich versus the poor.

I continue to be amazed that in this day and age of such sophisticated communication, these candidates are the best we can muster. Perhaps there is a reason for this.

If you are reading these posts or writing these posts, you must be aware that somehow we are powerless and outside of the loop, unable to initiate change that works for or by the people.

The shell game continues. Don't buy into the blame game. The Bush administration has proven they will go to great lengths to push their agenda and that those lenghts are merely tracks in the snow that can be easily covered.

After all, no one is listening anyway.

Posted by: Zero Hour on June 14, 2004 11:09 AM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 11:55 AM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 11:56 AM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 11:56 AM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 11:57 AM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 11:57 AM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:00 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:00 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:00 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:02 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:03 PM

____

Hello Every Body,

i am an "outsider" here. a muslim, a non-american,
a lowly third world inhabitant.

i have never posted my feeling on a forum like this because i was disappointed at whatever i saw and read all over the news etc. but today this forum has produced hope for me and i endeavour to put forward the following :-

1. toture is nothing new, look at american prisons
and u will find all of the crimes stated above (including child abuse).

2. look at your "popular" culture at large, which
has no moral qualms with "playboy", "playgirl",
pornography (both children and adult).

3. look at bond between a mother/father and a child, it looks like children are born alone in
america, and they stay alone throughout their
lives. what does that produce from a psychological point of view ?

4. look at the level of "marketing" in the "popular" culture, anything goes to sell a product, sex, glory, violence, "being cool" are modern day "selling tools" and nobody questions this.

i could go on ranting for a very long time, but i close at this :-

i am no moral superior to anybody of you, actually i am worse than the worst of you, that said :-

please do consider, what goes around comes around, dont think that you being a democracy (you are not) you may be able to change things by voting this way or that, it is just a sham to blind you of what is really going on, if you really want to change things in america (and by extension most of the world) please get up, and fight as your own kid was mollested, as your own father was murdered, as your own backyard glows in the dark.

only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future.

otherwise i am afraid,

there were many nations much stronger that you can
ever imagine, which perished without a trace.

dont think america will be any different.

history is the best of teachers.

regards and may God guide us all to the right path.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:06 PM

____

The following is the rendition of the wise words
by the man called "SITTING BULL", a man of vision,
courage and wisdom, by Mr. John Neihardt, which
very accurately describes what is going on in america, and to variying degrees in the rest of
the world.

"Have I not seen the only mother, Earth,
Full-breasted with the mercy of her Springs,
Rejoicing in her multitude of wings
And clinging roots and legs that leapt and ran?
And whether winged or rooted, beast or man,
We, all of us were little ones at nurse.
And I have seen her stricken with a curse
Of fools, who build their lodges up so high
They lose their mother, and the father sky
Is hidden in the darkness that they build;
And with their trader's babble they have killed
The ancient voices that could make them wise.
Their mightiest in trickery and lies
Are chiefs among them. It shall come to pass
When these at last have stolen all the grass
And all the wood, the water and the meat,
And there's no more to burn and drink and eat
Than all could use in many moons of feast,
The starving people shall become a beast,
Denied the very grasses of the chief.
But dreaming each to be the bigger thief
They toil and swarm, not knowing how their sweat
Shall turn to blood upon them.
Who forget their mother are forgotten at the last.
Already I have seen it in the past
Of spirit vision."

regards.

Posted by: amuslim on June 14, 2004 12:50 PM

____

I will be moving out of the country next week as the direct result of our current administration. I no longer feel safe, secure or protected by the constitution. My country is no longer mine, so I shall leave it...

Posted by: amishboy on June 14, 2004 02:05 PM

____

hey d. smith...if there was evidence of cruelty towards children in Iraq you would drop Bush "in a heartbeat?" Did you know that reletively half of Iraq's population consists of people under the age of 15? And what about the number of children left orphaned? what about the fact that over a million children have died as a result of US sactions? What about the depleted uranium used in munitions, that have increased the cancer rates in children in Iraq over 700%!!!!This war is dreadfull, especially for children, this cruel war IS torture for these children.

Posted by: liz on June 14, 2004 02:57 PM

____

Hey Toran,
Did you know that it was the Europeans, namely the French, who taught native Americans the practice of scalping?

The BIAS in the eastern journalist's message was justifiable. Meaning to say that the indecent and inappropriate actions by the militarized elitists--predominately white males-of the US and it's European allies, spreading culural and literal genocide,in covert and not so covert acts,all across the world in the name of lust for power and greed...tends to create those kinds of opinions. This has been going on for decades. It's always been the same people just now with the current mantel: USA! USA! USA! #1 woohoo!

The US that you seem to staunchly defend is an ideal hanging in front of your nose like a carrot on a stick that, in every right, is by definition the CORPORATION, of the U.S.A.

I am a world citizen and could not care less about being your fellow "countryman" or how it might affect you emotionally. Personally I have travelled extensively across 6 continents. I love the people I have met on those journeys. I feel this gives me a certain amount of experience when expressing veiws on how "America" is seen outside of it's own domain. My work is in the field of conflict resolution. And I'm here to inform you that the opponent who uses force to resolve conflict is in utter denial of the truth, plain and simple.

The North American continent,Turtle Island, my homeland, has been experiencing a systematic genocide for over 500 years! It is still happening as we speak! Check out what the Peabody coal mining company is doing in the four corners area with full support from the "government".(just one example) You would think that maybe, at some point, someone somewhere down the line would at least officially ackonwledge it...if not apologize for it. But, at the end of the day, billionaire oilmen/baker/politicians don't give a tinkers damn about the common man regardless of his "country". It's an illusion! You help keep it in place by taking pride in it. HA! This is wonder bread America at it's finest. Americaville!

I understand the power of positive thought, but even the Dali Lama agrees that those who run about creating negative Karma must be brought to justice. If not they continue creating more negative acts...and when they become undeniable we are all accountable. It's all in a name...USA.


I do not hate PERIOD! Much less self hate. We live on a what is called a continent that we share,figuratively, with one another. We are each another's gift to the world. Perhaps it is all we owe one another. The imaginary lines seperating Canada and Mexico from The U.S. are exactly that....imaginary!
What can we do?!! We can start by accepting that REALITY. Wake up and smell the r-Evoultion. We have to at least attempt something that never in our history has been attempted before. Is that going to happen voluntarily? I think not... which is why I say it's going to get a lot worse. We have no right as a nation to force our blinding hypocracy on any other nations people. I am not suggesting that the current situation is/was avoidable...not even. This needs to happen. It is all part of the cure.


As far I what I will do about any it...I sure as hell will not defend the status quo. I will live in ceremony and treat people with respect and call out the the untruths where and when I see them. I will sacrifice some pride and accept some accountability of my ethnic heritage, and encourage others to do so. Perhaps this will prevent my brothers and sisters across the world from having to sacrifice their very lives for the indecrestions of this "great nation".

Your pride is loathsome and disgusting. But most interesting to me is that you chose to answer my post in a defensive debunking manner. ALL I have to say to you is...IF the shoe fits.

Posted by: RR on June 14, 2004 03:08 PM

____

Brad: Photographic evidence of this torture exists. Right now I'm trying to reach a soldier who has this evidence and who is pissed off about the war. Hopefully we can get this evidence released.

Posted by: Chuck0 on June 14, 2004 04:08 PM

____

Just because one is crazy doesn't mean that one is wrong. We are well on our way to a dictator state where everything that "Mad King George" says is right is permissable. As for where to be beyong reach, somewhere in the wilds of Canada may work, as long as you don't need to come to town for anything. I think every patriot mided individual in this country should arm themselves to the teeth and take to the streets when they decale martial law. But that is something that has become MUCH more difficult.

Posted by: Cynic on June 14, 2004 04:27 PM

____

Thank all-a you for ALL the comments, whether directed towards me or not. Or even if they are directed AT me and AGAINST me, doesn't bother me much.

ZeroHour, I really prefer to NOT respond to anonymous posters. If your views are solid, then they should belong to a name. That's the first step in accountability, btw.

"I continue to be amazed that in this day and age of such sophisticated communication, these candidates are the best we can muster. Perhaps there is a reason for this."

Sure. It's been said long before I came along:

Anybody with the drive and energy to run the gauntlet of a Presidential Campaign, IS:

(by definition), almost EACH AND EVERY TIME, much better at running campaigns than countries. That's not just in the U.S. of A, btw...!!

The wonder is that Statesmen and Stateswomen, of Historic dimensions, appear outta this mess-of-a-process, occasionally, in the first place.

"If you are reading these posts or writing these posts, you must be aware that somehow we are powerless and outside of the loop, unable to initiate change that works for or by the people."

By self-definition, that's true.

I liked John Robb's old tag-line on his "blog-blech" (VERY approx).. "No sense trying pessimism, 'cause it doesn't work either."

Iow, forgive me if I "pretend" otherWise.

There are many other forms of government better suited to the United States, I am sure. We may derive one, or may not.

However, there are few forms of government which CAN ACTUALLY BE IMPLEMENTED and MAINTAINED over time, and this seems to be a "keeper". Especially when considering it's a scant couple-hundred years old, which is infancy in cultural terms. And, btw, there's a vast difference between theoretical models of government, and a Society of a quarter-billion cogs in "the Combine", right?

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 05:09 PM

____

Actually, iirc, it was "pessimism, it won't work anyway."

As I said above, who the heck is "RR"?? Roger Rabbit??

"I am a world citizen and could not care less about being your fellow 'countryman'..."

Yeah, I noticed that from this post and the others before, but thanks for pointing that out again. As well as for near-perfectly self-contradicting:

"I do not hate PERIOD!"

And where you say, "I understand the power of positive thought," you obviously lie in this very post. I've run into many who find comfort that they are of an understanding of no less than H.H. The Dalai Lama, however they usually aren't.

"Your pride is loathsome and disgusting." or so you say, but your own pride is plainly is self-evidence, again in this post.

You can attempt alienation and sedition (if a citizen, which I gather you're not being from Canada apparently), but I'm not into your (sic) "r-Evoultion". What you see as REALITY is what most have noticed long ago, around here. However, it's still a case of Canadians (especially arrogant, hypocritical, Canadians if that's what YOU are, "RR"...;-) do not elect the President of the U.S.

And IF you are and American citizen, or even if not, I'm sorry you haven't resolved your own authority-conflicts.

Most of what you say, historically, is in my view mostly accurate. You'll do a lotta consulting about resolving conflict, but most likely not in any areas of this nature.

And I'd forgotten that about the French, but I have NEVER forgotten it was this same teaching which helped the U.S. defeat England and form (nor the Statue of Liberty). See.. Even when I'm dissmissing some-a the political views of the current French administration, I do not hate them either.

Your own arrogance and hypocricy shows, methinks.. "RR"...;-D

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 05:26 PM

____

I contacted Perlstein about this e-mail to make sure it was authentic -- and it apparently is. You can read our exchange at: http://professorkim.blogspot.com/2004_06_13_professorkim_archive.html#108726103295093291

Posted by: Kim Pearson on June 14, 2004 06:03 PM

____

Mr.Toran, I can appreciate your comments about anonymity. Please understand my reservations when people attached to the current administration pass Patriot Acts that give broad, sweeping powers to police agencies. Please understand my trepidation when a Secretary of Defense equates dissent with anti-Americanism or advisers of all sorts equate critique with aiding and abetting terrorists.

These are dangerous times, my friend.

While I am cognizant of the fact that each e-mail diminishes the idea of anonymity where true computer/internet professionals are concerned, I will error on the side of safety where the average reader/schmuck is concerned.

As a student of history, I too am amazed by the contrasts with Germany of the 1920's and early 30's. This is not to say that we are living with a totalitarian, fascist regime in charge but rather, a group of individuals so bent on pushing its plans that anything is fair game. The media is complicit in this regard and fails to ask pertinent, prudent questions. Average citizenry is castigated for asking questions. The abolition of rights guaranteed via The Constitution is characterized as a small price to pay in the battle against terrorists who somehow concoct their plans from caves on the other side of the world.

And in this regard, we know the movements of the terrorist hierarchy and we have the keen knowledge as to when evidence is 'credible'...yet, we cannot bring these people to 'justice'.

You will pardon me if I see this 'terrorist threat' as being a convenient facade, and see a clear and present contrast to the bombing of the Reichstag building, way back when.

Most pointedly, I look more and more at events that have taken place as incredible events which are specific to this administration and yet, have gone unnoticed by the average citizen. I tend to wonder if John Carpenter's "They Live" was more on target than he could have ever imagined.

Perhaps we need special glasses to see the truth.

Posted by: Zero Hour on June 14, 2004 06:10 PM

____

Mr. or Ms. "ProfessorKim",

When these folks memoirs come out, I'm sure everybody's gonna come out smelling like a rose, to some.

"He said the people most horrified by the way the war was planned were the military commanders responsible for protecting their troops.... "

You, apparently, would have not studied much in the way of the Battle of Afghanistan, and such...

Notice the difference between the two? It would be a case, according what I've heard, read, and inferred, that the Battle of Iraq II was planned at the end of the Battle of Iraq I.

It was OVER-planned at the front-end, and was only planned through the front-end of the battle-plan, apparently. Seems like to me, but I'm no professor of things military, that's a roger.

And nobody KNEW how QUICKLY the Hussein Regime would topple. It was widely quoted in the press (I mean, I read it), that the Russian Generals had just told Hussein (a month or two before the counter-attack) that he looked REAL solid, and the even the Israeli Generals were "studying at the film" of the Battle.. to use a sports term, so to speak.

I sort-a figured that was Seymour Hersh speaking, as I'd read another article or two or three of his, but thanks for confirming that.

I don't know if you're male of female, Professor Pearson, but I have seen the falacy of (although I've said myself) "the Males of the Species is accursedly visual".

I have seen, in my minds eye, these very films that you and Mr. Hersh and all are afraid of, and I cried when I did.

I did not cry when I heard about the fate of Mr. Nick Berg, nor when I learned just today that Columbus, Ohio has been and is being threatend by the "friends" of the POWs in Abu Ghraib, tho.. and they have "friends" all around the world, I can see that much clearly. Too tired, I s'pose.. or something like that.

Bin Laden declared war, if some-a you recall, in '95. He's had his soldiers over here for some time, as was discovered back in '91.

Well, some noticed that then, some never will.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 06:44 PM

____

Mr. Zero Hour, thank you for some cogent discussion. However, a couple points or so:

First, let us be clear about one thing, because if you can either read or hear or smell or touch or taste or speak, any-a these since Helen Keller, then you can cognize and you are capable of understanding some things, and not others. It requires no Kurzweil-research-on-chimpanzees, iow. Nor Project Lucy nor cloning of human embryos, and these things get in the way of vision, if you have not yet observed that much.


"Mr.Toran, I can appreciate your comments about anonymity. Please understand my reservations when people attached to the current administration pass Patriot Acts that give broad, sweeping powers to police agencies. Please understand my trepidation when a Secretary of Defense equates dissent with anti-Americanism or advisers of all sorts equate critique with aiding and abetting terrorists."

"These are dangerous times, my friend."

Fortunately I pretend to be as blissfully ignorant as you appear to be, or I would not be writing, my friend. But thank you.

I've decided it would be unsafe as well, to post anonymously. That is, of course, a matter of personal opinion.


"While I am cognizant of the fact that each e-mail diminishes the idea of anonymity where true computer/internet professionals are concerned, I will error on the side of safety where the average reader/schmuck is concerned."

I've seen similar views, due to violent stalkers. I'm more worried about terrorists, but I can understand.

"As a student of history, I too am amazed by the contrasts with Germany of the 1920's and early 30's. This is not to say that we are living with a totalitarian, fascist regime in charge but"

Funny, History was one-a my most difficult subjects, after Geography. Ah well, I enjoy it on TV every now and again.

And.. Well, you got a CLEAR bead on this one, which few have!!


"rather, a group of individuals so bent on pushing its plans that anything is fair game."

On the contrary, there are two things involved.

You have an administration which believes it got "the mandate of The People", in the election of '02. There's room for debate on that one.

But you also have WWIII. That would be a different issue, which people don't wanna contend with because they want to reverse the election of 2000, after they blew the chance in 2002.


"The media is complicit in this regard and fails to ask pertinent, prudent questions. Average citizenry is castigated for asking questions. The abolition of rights guaranteed via The Constitution is characterized as a small price to pay in the battle against terrorists who somehow concoct their plans from caves on the other side of the world."

As I've said before, the "little games" you see?

They've reached into the shopping malls of my hometown, friend.

"And in this regard, we know the movements of the terrorist hierarchy and we have the keen knowledge as to when evidence is 'credible'...yet, we cannot bring these people to 'justice'."

"You will pardon me if I see this 'terrorist threat' as being a convenient facade, and see a clear and present contrast to the bombing of the Reichstag building, way back when."

No problem. It's easy to confuse. Especially easy to confuse if IT AIN'T YOU THESE TERRORISTS ARE THREATENING TO MURDER.

"Most pointedly, I look more and more at events that have taken place as incredible events which are specific to this administration and yet, have gone unnoticed by the average citizen. I tend to wonder if John Carpenter's 'They Live' was more on target than he could have ever imagined."

I'm a "'cultural'-lamer" in some respects, not in others.

Dunno this reference, that's a fer-sure..

So I can only somewhat imagine..

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 06:59 PM

____

Arrrgh.. I am actually NOT intending the Japanese Art form (I forget the name) where the artist intentially leaves in a mistake or two...;-)-;


Was I what said, "Bin Laden declared war, if some-a you recall, in '95. He's had his soldiers over here for some time, as was discovered back in '91."

IF I recall correctly it was '95, (I think so,) *and* that should-a been "back in '01", of course.

Also, I notice how PC everybody is.

Of COURSE it was the higher-ups, the foot-soldiers are of course impeccable, according to the Military-man quoted, iirc.

And I forgot to ask if anybody has yet found a "non-average citizen", to this day?!?

(small joke.. VERY small...)-;


Above, @Chuck-O...

I believe it's either your friend, of friends of your friends that are responsible for Abu Ghraib, "friend". Only drunks would aid and abet the enemy in this fashion, afaik. The press already has the facts, obviously, and they'll play it out as they wanna. And this soldier is not doing anything to help, contrary to what they might wanna "think".

Lemme know when you track this guy or gal down, will ya?

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 07:46 PM

____

Dag, I almost give up.

I guess "the Military-man" I referred to was Mr. Hersh.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 07:49 PM

____

[wrote this SO looooong ago, and I often DO think whether I should write something-or-other.. or not-write....]

Mr. or Ms. "amuslim",

Thank you for what I perceive anyway as a heart-felt reply. However, it was lessened by a few smallish things. Your anonomity, for one. But where you say:

"only if you feel the pain of the people who have
been harmed in your name by your cruel government
you may be able to change things for the better in
future."

THAT!, most people on the planet HAVE felt over the millenia, and it's no different today.. just as you say in other parts of your reply.

We in America, along with all the rest of you (for U.S. or against U.S., either one barring few), felt that on 9-11-01, as most don't wanna recall.

"otherwise i am afraid,"

Either way, I'm afraid. I live in Columbus, Ohio, but you probably haven't heard the news. People are afraid outside of Columbus, because we knew (at SOME level) that this was going on, just didn't see it in front of us so starkly.

It would be irrational to NOT be afraid, but one of any Nation and/or Faith and/or whatever.. must do as Winston Churchill said:

KBO...)-; ("Keep Buggerin' On...")-;

[..And I can recognize that seems lame, to some, but continue nonetheless....]


I was going to write on how points 1 thru 4 which you mention, are widely recognized as "truth", which is to say these are uncomfortable "values" which some share and some do not.

Take too long, but just now noticed your Sitting Bull quote. Alas, while Sitting Bull was no bull, nor a fool..

"They lose their mother, and the father sky
Is hidden in the darkness that they build;
And with their trader's babble they have killed
The ancient voices that could make them wise."

This would be true in a metamorphical view. The darkness he is talking about is a darkness of the Spirit he tried to touch and taste and smell.

Have you, Mr. or Mrs. "amuslim" noticed anybody in your country who would like to trade anything?

Probably more than there are things TO trade, I would reckon... But Sitting Bull, he is not a Master to follow, for the simple reason you can only follow the words.

And he, himself, has forgotten his own Mother when he says, "Already I have seen it in the past
Of spirit vision."

Any vision of the past, as Nostradamos can tell you, can be a vision of the present.. or not.

But Sitting Bull implies he could see the future, by saying it thusly, and exposes his own lack of hearing and sight.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I intended to get back to was this point, Mr. or Ms. "amuslim". Your voice is quavering a little, as far as hope goes... Anybody who lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis knows that sound.

I welcome this discussion, and any further discussion as well even if it turns out I don't have time to reply in the future.

With this exception:

If you are "a professional",

AND/OR if you are Wahabe,

EITHER ONE, then stay away from here.. Stay away from me, please...

..I do not sense this in the least, but I don't know that I even WOULD know and icbw, of course.

I am tolerant of MOST-all, but not Wahabe (which I probably have misspelt).

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 08:28 PM

____

Now I just plain give up.

Meant to add "OR THE INFLUENCE OF WAHABE", because that is allegedly what happened to the Somali-immigrant here in Columbus.

(Btw, Columbus has a black mayor, and this only adds insult to the alleged attempted-murderous-injury.)

If you have any "friends" or whatEVER who are Wahabe, then you are no friend of me or mine.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 14, 2004 08:33 PM

____

"Conservatives hate 'brown people.'"
but i said-
"I *think* **maybe** conservatives hate brown people"
Big difference.
just thinking out loud, not a professional politian or economist...........
but yes, should have said-
*i* *think* *some* *maybe* *might* hate.
I have a lot of general frustrations over this "war on terror", "war on drugs"
might as well be some "war on jealousy" or "war on blitzkrige" too

yes I'm finally waking up to the fact that America is not so great as i thought, you know when it started? during the Monica thing...why distract and dog a talented, albeit flawed leader with old land deals and sex???


Posted by: Beth on June 14, 2004 09:59 PM

____

Sadly i feel that liberals in general are in a losing battle.

We (liberals) may get some tiny relief if Kerry wins.

Thats if the powers that be let the election go on...cause they risk losing (kinda low poll #'s even now) and then have to face a human rights abuse trial and/or saddams trial where they could get into big trouble.

so they might-

stop the election because martial law is called because of an attack. (they keep saying)

the electronic machines for voting get rigged.

the rolls are greatly perged.

or an October Surprise...you know the kind, wag the dog/sympathy/outrage

or they could have the media pull a Clinton on Kerry's past sex life.

but he still somehow mannages to win cause the powers that be are ashamed of their CEO's handling of the PR.

Kerry will still be stuck with a military-media-industial complex that is very, very un-kind to the little guy who is looking for an even playing field and a government that does not kill unthreating people in their name.

yep, it always comes down to david vs golith

HOW DARE THEY! -Albert Gore
GRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHRRRRWL! -Howard Dean

Posted by: Beth on June 14, 2004 11:13 PM

____

Sadly i feel that liberals in general are in a losing battle.

We (liberals) may get some tiny relief if Kerry wins.

Thats if the powers that be let the election go on...cause they risk losing (kinda low poll #'s even now) and then have to face a human rights abuse trial and/or saddams trial where they could get into big trouble.

so they might-

stop the election because martial law is called because of an attack. (they keep saying)

the electronic machines for voting get rigged.

the rolls are greatly perged.

or an October Surprise...you know the kind, wag the dog/sympathy/outrage

or they could have the media pull a Clinton on Kerry's past sex life.

but he still somehow mannages to win cause the powers that be are ashamed of their CEO's handling of the PR.

Kerry will still be stuck with a military-media-industial complex that is very, very un-kind to the little guy who is looking for an even playing field and a government that does not kill unthreating people in their name.

yep, it always comes down to david vs golith

HOW DARE THEY! -Albert Gore
GRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHRRRRWL! -Howard Dean

Posted by: Beth on June 14, 2004 11:14 PM

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...i think the trick is to not preview the comment b4 u post, yep that's the ticket. sorry, hate to scroll on you.

Posted by: Beth on June 14, 2004 11:17 PM

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

...as a German friend of mine said of his parents and how they lived through the Third Reich: "They knew that they knew what they didn't want to know."

"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that his justice cannot sleep forever." Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: Robert Chandler on June 16, 2004 05:56 AM

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First, I want to say I do not wish to argue with anyone. I am a life-long democrat & have read about our enemy, their history & what they are doing now in many countries & this war on a daily basis since 9/11/01, sometimes as long as 10 hours a day, being in contact with many Muslim extremists on many forums, via email & visiting many web sites & I am very worried about what is happening. I have never been prejudice in my life and have always felt, and still feel, everyone should live and let live as long as no one is hurting anyone by the way they choose to live. I got to this web site by a Muslim extremist posting on an Islamic forum, BTW. Everything like this, our enemy uses against us. I was for this war in Iraq at first b/c I did already know so much about our enemy & realized w/o stablizing Iraq, there would be no way to rid the world of terrorism...if there is a way. There is no compromising with these people. No matter what we do or any other nonmuslim country does, they aren't going to stop killing people. These people want all nonmuslims forced to convert to Islam & their Islamic laws worldwide; and if you refuse to convert to Islam, they will either cut off a body part or 2, use women/little girls as their sex slaves, make us 2nd class citizens, or kill us, all within the rules/laws of their religion. I realize this sounds ridiculous, but there's no doubt about it. I've seen it written in their Hadiths & Quran, as well as happening now in some countries. This is what their religion tells them is going to happen (Islam will rule the world) & this is really why they are fighting. Anything the US or anyone else does wrong, only justifies their reason to take over the world, which is b/c Islam is the only way to put an end to immoral behavior in the world & it is their obligation to do it b/c this is what Allah wants/ needs them to do. Does anyone know the history of the Ottoman Empire & how it came into power? The Muslims did exactly what they're doing today in Algeria, Sudan, Nigeria, the Philipines, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine/Israel, and a whole host of other countries. Do you realize how many nonmuslims, especially Christians, these people kill every day? It's usually on the news, just not on our news, for some reason. I wish I could tell you everything I have found out before I ask you some questions but I am not sure what you all are aware of or how much room I have, but I can backup everything I say. These people have a whole lot of different strategies they are using to become the rulers of the world, but I will only touch on a few. They have planted Muslim extremist journalists in practically every country to spread their propaganda, or "turnspeak", which is a tactic Hitler used (will explain upon request, but you can easily see it happening); they move into countries & "breed with a vengeance," multiplying 5 times more than average people in order to hike up their population countries to fight their holy wars eventually; they try to get as many Muslims as possible in political positions in all countries; have Muslim exts/fundis on campuses to try & spread hate against Israel/the US/the west, to name only a few of their tactics. And let me make it clear here that I realize there are many good Muslims in the world, too, and especially in the west; but an unknown number of those still plan to take over the world, only peacefully, by trying to spread Islam by their good actions. This doesn't bother me. The exts/fundis are the only ones that worry me.

These people are propaganda pros, some even going to schools to learn how to fool the press & others. I have read in newspapers where the Palestinians have been caught on cameras of journalists having fake funerals. They purposely have gotten into ambulances, had cameras at the scene & made the Israeli soldiers shoot at them so they can use the tape for propaganda. They've done the very same thing to our soldiers in Iraq. They had almost the entire world believing the Israelis had committed a massacre not long ago in Palestine until more thorough investigations were done. Their religion tells them lying is fine if it is for the good of Islam. I wish I had room to tell you everything. It's just unbelievable. And what is the scarest thing of all is that the "turnspeak", even the telling of a different history than is known & written of an event over & over until many begin to believe it...which was used also by Hitler, BTW...the conspiracy theories/lies/propaganda, etc., works so well at fooling so many.

I'll be the first to admit the US has made mistakes & hasn't always been sweet & innocent. What country, and especially empire/superpower, has been perfect & what people doesn't have blood on their hands through history? I can't think of any empires who have been as good to others, though, as the US has been. We hold a very difficult position in the world. This isn't an excuse, but it needs to be taken into consideration. But the above are the main reasons for all of the anti-Americanism we are seeing today. They have been using these tactics for many years now & have really worked hard on our European allies. And if you will recall, most Europeans didn't believe Hitler was a danger either until they saw his army marching into their country to take it over. But these countries do realize what a threat Muslim extremists are & the Europeans have had Islamophobia more than Americans ever have & all European countries are with us on the War on Terrorism. France is almost gone now and is almost a Muslim country. They seem to be just now realizing this fact & just now trying to do something about it. But that's a whole other story. But the anti-Americanism has mainly came from these tactics. I have seen where Muslim extremists have written many times that one of their main goals is to "divide & conquer." They have won, in a way, and divided some of Europe against the US. But this isn't the only reason for anti-Americanism in Europe. Some European countries have purposely let the anti-Americanism in their media for a reason. The EU is sick of the US being the superpower of the world and their goal is to rebuild the Roman Empire, and of course, we all know France, Germany & Russia had deals with Saddam under the table and the UN is corrupt. Remember, just b/c many are against you, doesn't make you wrong.

Have you ever wondered why Muslim countries almost always end up with so many ruthless, evil leaders/dictators? Is the way Saddam & many other ruthless leaders in the past & now have handled these religious freaks been the only way to stop them from fighting and to control them? I think so.

So, the questions in my head and what I am asking your opinions on are these:

1) With so much propaganda, framing & conspiracy theories out there, how in the world do you believe anything unless you have absolute, concrete proof?
2) How do you fight by rules if the people you are fighting do not go by any rules?
3) I am totally against torturing prisoners to the point of death, and was appalled that US soldiers actually took porn pictures, used dogs to scare people into talking, even to the point of letting them be bitten, etc. And if this turns out to be true about doing anything at all to children, this is something I don't think 95% of Americans will tolerate in the least. I know I won't. But when our troops and many good Iraqis are in so much danger and there's a huge danger of Iraq being taken over by the terrorists...Afghanistan was bad enough, but give the terrorists an oil rich country & we are as good as wiped off the face of the earth...is a little hazing, minus the horrible things such as sodemy, etc., really all that horrible of a thing in exchange for vital information?

Considering the horrid things these people have done (mutilating bodies, beheadings, etc.), it made me sick to see how the Muslim world made such a big deal about how horrible America was for doing these things in the prisons. All of a sudden these people are united and Americans have never been so divided. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that this is absolutely the worst thing in the world for all Americans, to be so divided right now. I just think all of these things are a whole lot more dangerous than some of you seem to think they are, and I know many Americans have fallen for the "turnspeak." And winning this war isn't important just to say we won. bin Laden & his thugs winning in Afghanistan against Russia, with our help, they say is what put the idea in their heads that they could start a war and win against the US, too, if they could win over a country as big as Russia. I just can't see us winning against these evil, ruthless people without being a little evil ourselves, as bad as I hate to say it. You don't win wars by being nice. With Europe wanting to pull away from the US & pass us up, the Muslims jumping on their band wagon, and if we lose Iraq & the terrorists taking an oil rich country over, there's no doubt about us being doomed. I just do not feel Americans should not be fighting over how much our gov has done wrong right now. We can deal with that later. I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that if we all do not stick together now, we can all kiss our asses goodbye.

Posted by: Debbie on June 16, 2004 08:54 AM

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I've been meaning to reply to Beth for the past couple days. Got tied up, folded, spindled and mutilated, and then drug through the streets by some folks at the IETF and W3C.

Apologies, and no time now to read even.

BUT:

"I have never been prejudice in my life and have always felt, and still feel, everyone should live and let live as long as no one is hurting anyone by the way they choose to live. I got to this web site by a Muslim extremist posting on an Islamic forum, BTW."

There's a VERY SLIGHT prejudice being exposed here:

Wahhabe is NOT "Muslim extremism", because it has nothing to do WITH ISLAM!!

I am not Islam, nor Sufi, but "know" some. At least I know THAT much.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 16, 2004 04:31 PM

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Btw, I didn't mean to be harsh on Debbie (and haven't had a chance to read piece yet, also).

I'm sure I have used these same phrases myself, "Islamic radicals", "Muslim terrorists", etc. That's how I noticed the VERY SLIGHT prejudice above, because I'd seen it in myself.

Mebbe laterz.. mebbe not...

Posted by: J. Toran on June 17, 2004 06:53 AM

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Mebbe sooner than later...;-D

I just skimmed above, and saw this part:

"1) With so much propaganda, framing & conspiracy theories out there, how in the world do you believe anything unless you have absolute, concrete proof?"

>> Belief is a subject beyond the scope of any writing. However, it is almost always a case of people starting with their belief (these guys good, these guys bad), and then analyzing BACKWARDS to what is propaganda and what is not.

>> However, in some situations, it is not so hard... There's one side (the Coalition) that makes an attempt to follow the Geneva Conventions, and there's another side which blows up Iraqi's and cuts civilian's heads off.

>> No propaganda changes that.

>> The problem is, in actual fact, the Geneva Conventions. Although well-intentioned, the falsehood-meme that rules can be made up to make warfare "fair" is contrary to the facts everybody knows (at SOME level, at least), which is that war is horrifically "disgusting", to put it mildly... But sometimes necessary.

"2) How do you fight by rules if the people you are fighting do not go by any rules?"

>> Ah, should-a read ahead...

>> Again, fighting war "within the rules" is sort-a an oxymoron... Well, not sort-a.

>> BUT, what ARE the rules as far as killing people? It should be done in self-defense, and if it's not done in self-defense.. Did I skim the phrase "what goes around, comes around" in the post of "amuslim", or somebody else??

>> Abu Ghraib illustrates the principle.

>> (And the shame is that there are better ways to torture people, that I'm fairly sure are within the "rules" of the Geneva Convention, to be cold-blooded about the situation in Iraq.) Btw, the Red Cross folks who are trying to sit in judgment about what is "fair" or "unfair".. Do ALL these people come from NYC, Washington or Columbus, Ohio, where people have been slaughtered or attempted to be murdered??

>> Because I'm not sure they can BE fair about this war, otherwise.


"3) I am totally against torturing prisoners to the point of death, and was appalled that US soldiers actually took porn pictures, used dogs to scare people into talking, even to the point of letting them be bitten, etc. And if this turns out to be true about doing anything at all to children, this is something I don't think 95% of Americans will tolerate in the least. I know I won't. But when our troops and many good Iraqis are in so much danger and there's a huge danger of Iraq being taken over by the terrorists...Afghanistan was bad enough, but give the terrorists an oil rich country & we are as good as wiped off the face of the earth...is a little hazing, minus the horrible things such as sodemy, etc., really all that horrible of a thing in exchange for vital information?"

>> Somebody said above that they HAD TO KNOW EXACTLY what information was gleaned by these methods.

>> That's not gonna happen.

>> That's the stupidity that is prevalent, because if EVERYTHING about this comes out, you may as well be playing poker with the cards face up. And this "game" is for keeps, not poker, like you said above from what I skimmed, Debbie.

>> Abu Ghraib was a net loss to the US.

>> However, we can never know if an attack on the US or someplace else actually WAS averted by some small tid-bit of info, either.

>> But clearly Abu Ghraib was a "wrongness" that shouldn't have happened the way it did. That's what SHOWS this as a "wrong", because it MAY have given more-n-a-black-eye to the Coalition. It MAY even be a fatal blow to Iraqi Democracy, but I do not believe so... So even people that know/believe the OVERALL CAUSE of the Coalition Forces is the same as the OVERALL CAUSE of the Iraqi people, can see this much clearly.

>> (And even if the Iraqi people themselves do not yet clearly see the difference between the Coalition protecting them and the terrorists killing them.)

>> And the Bush Admin is pursuing those responsible, up to a point.

>> (Some will be made scapegoats and other's will get away scot-free, because that's what usually happens, right?)

>> They MAY eventually establish their own Democracy, and if Abu Ghraib was blown to smithereens and/or made into a "Holocaust" Museum of SADDAM HUSSEIN'S SADISM, with only a PROPORTIONAL showing of the sadism of drunk and ill-trained Coalition Forces, then this would put it into perspective for the Iraqi people.

>> There are, by most estimates, between 10,000 and 20,000 Iraqi people who are alive today because the bastard was ousted... Probably much more, because I gather the killings had been escalating in the years prior.

>> Most forget that now that Hussein is in safe hands, but some haven't.

(I'll hafta get back to Beth later, if I get a chance.)

Posted by: J. Toran on June 17, 2004 07:33 AM

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You people how read this whitewash of Pres. Bush. You all can't see the truth because the hate blinds you're clear thinking. If you think OUR President is not telling the truth. I don't want to drink the coolaid that is you're website. Sadam would still be in power. So next time A brutial dictator that killed thousands of childern, men and women. I guess you can live with that because you are So filled with hate it doesn't matter be how many innocent die. So just stick you're head in the sand. Hey mabey that might work because you'all miss more innocent Americans DIE!!!!!

Posted by: stan on June 17, 2004 07:09 PM

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"stan", it isn't SOLELY a matter of hate.

MANY people do not want President Bush elected, because he wasn't (literally speaking) elected in 2000. And everybody understands, at some level, that if the war in Iraq goes well, it will be difficult to elect somebody other than President Bush.

It's the hatred of the result of the 2000 election, which results in most of the non-clear thinking.

Beth, where you say "Sadly i feel that liberals in general are in a losing battle.".. The conservatives are saying the same thing!

If you actually believe there is some comparison between what President Bush has done and what Saddam Hussein has done, then I'm sorry for you.

The elections WILL go on, unless there's another attack (EITHER by the Wahhabists OR a "home-grown" terrorist like the Anthrax Terrorist). Then, there's a possibility that someone (General Westmoreland??!?) is right, that martial law will be declared... MANY are expecting same in the U.S. that happened in Spain (since the Spanish electorate bowed to the wishes of the terrorists).

Dunno, until that time comes and goes.

>> "the electronic machines for voting get rigged."

That's the fault of the fucking people that will NOT listen to computer professions, and want voting to be CONVENIENT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.. where part of the anything else is a fair and an accurate count. That does NOT require computers, and that's a falsehood-meme. Computers WILL prevent a fair and accurate count, if allowed to.

>> "Kerry will still be stuck with a military-media-industial complex that is very, very un-kind to the little guy who is looking for an even playing field and a government that does not kill unthreating people in their name."

Excuse me, but are you alive, Beth? I am.

And now I see the problem: You actually wanna believe that Howard Dean could entirely mishandle a $50 MILLION dollar campaign, and blow a commanding lead, and yet somehow manage to run a 3 or 4 trillion dollar economy in "the most powerful country" on the planet...?!?

It IS a possibility, but SO slim that people of common-sense gave him the message. And you still haven't gotten the message, just like most stupid Libertarians.

And lemme set the record straight:

You all sure WANT to make out like your David vs. THE GOLIATH, but you ARE the Goliath of unclear thought/feelings. You Libertarians and NeoCons HAVE largely taken over both parties, using the power of the Net and the image that you're poor David.. "man" of wisdom fighting the powers-that-be.

Most are just spoilt by their parents, and just fighting EVERY authority figure they can find, just like the terrorists.

And, I dunno if Robert Chandler is a pseudonym or a real person. (Notice "amuslim" has been pretty quiet, of late.) But I would observe that, yeah, some here in America DO see what's going on with you of the Neo-Third-Reich!!

And Jefferson kept slaves, so mebbe HE'S the mofo responsible for 9-11, huh...?


Posted by: J. Toran on June 18, 2004 06:15 AM

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I still haven't had time to study "Debbie's" reply, but this is a factual error:

"I've seen it written in their Hadiths & Quran,"

Although this part is factual, "as well as happening now in some countries."

The wonder and bewilderment that ANY Scripture provides is inherent within the reader of that Scripture. There are MANY kinds-a pre-Gutenberg writings that speak to the present day, not by being precient (a la Nostradamus and all the Armageddonists (sp?)), but because they are of a wisdom that is not SOLELY particular to a given place, time, and culture, point-in-history, etc.

So it is ENTIRELY a matter of interpretation, similar, in this respect, to the U.S. Constitution.

(Does anybody actually BELIEVE that the Founding Father's could have envisioned the atom bomb and human cloning, when they set up the basis of our Democracy...?!? Nup...)

And it's not only a matter of the reader's interpretation, but of the accuracy of the recorded words and **also the translation**. (I am NOT muchuva religious person, nor a scholar... But I am familiar with only 1 decent translation of al Qurran, I thin' by somebody-with-last-name-of French.. (can't find it at the moment).)

That'd be EXACTLY the same as saying the Crusaders of centuries ago were actually CORRECTLY interpreting the Bible, when they obviously were NOT, Debbie.

Btw, I may hafta bow outta this discussion before I study the entire post, jes due to time/money and all that. Looking at finances last night, it appears I've been living off my supposed-retirement funds for longer than I'd thought.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 18, 2004 07:26 AM

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I'm sorry but i can't help but invisioning that J. might be one of the Neocons that through backdoor means helped to squash Dean like a bug...just a slight little conspiracy theory that flashed through my mind as i read him write---"You actually wanna believe that Howard Dean could entirely mishandle a $50 MILLION dollar campaign, and blow a commanding lead, and yet somehow manage to run a 3 or 4 trillion dollar economy in "the most powerful country" on the planet...?!?"

Posted by: Beth on June 18, 2004 07:32 AM

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throbbing guilty concscience?? hehehe just kidding

Posted by: Beth on June 18, 2004 07:42 AM

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Beth, show some respect to your elders:

"I'm sorry but i can't help but invisioning that J. might be one of the Neocons that through backdoor means helped to squash Dean like a bug..."

Listen, dudette, I've posted reams of material on the Trippi-D Campaign debacle. See Jay Rosen's PressThink.


"just a slight little conspiracy theory that flashed through my mind as i read him write---"

Yeah, but if you actually USED your mind, you might observe that finding conspiracies is the first avenue of the brain-dead. And finding conspiricies when there is none LEADS DIRECTLY to missing the conspiracies that are actually going on.


"You actually wanna believe that Howard Dean could entirely mishandle a $50 MILLION dollar campaign, and blow a commanding lead, and yet somehow manage to run a 3 or 4 trillion dollar economy in 'the most powerful country" on the planet...?!?'"

I guess, once a brain-dead Libertarian, always a brain-dead Libertarian.

Thaz no guess, btw, but an over-generalization.

Still, you posts shows it's not ALL THAT much of an over-generalization, li'l girl.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 18, 2004 08:45 AM

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Also, see my posts over at JOHO on the subject (IF they haven't been deleted), and elsewhere. Dr. Weinberger was the Director of Internet-whatever ON THE DEAN STAFF, so I've done more 'n a little "research" in this area.

Btw, punkette, I'm getting sick and tired of BOTH the rich and powerful, and ESPECIALLY the lamer's who WANNA BE the rich and powerful but are too lazy and too inept..

..and that's the ONLY thing stopping them....

....I'm tired of these kind-a folks taking cheap shots at me.


You can ask Ms. Shelley Powers, (but she'd probably lie anyway, because she's the witch that deletes all my comments lately, over at BurningBird)-:

I told her, a li'l over a year ago, that I was afraid a LOTta her blog-buddies were gonna come out looking like fools, at the end of the day. And I said I really LIKED these fools, so didn't wanna see that happen.

But I also said that they ARE very effective at what they do (propaganda), and yes.. they COULD end up being successful in getting Dean nominated.

Again, this was somewhere between April and June last year, iirc.

She apparently told her good friend, RageBoy (CAUTION: A LOTTA ADULT CONTENT), SOMETHING of my words to her. As RageBoy posted a comment last November (iirc), "I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on THIS bandwagon." This was at the HIGH point of the Dean Campaign. EVERYBODY thought he was THE SURE THING.


Turns out..

..what?

:

"throbbing guilty concscience??"

I tried to warn the assholes leading that Crusade, but they didn't listen.

Nor do they now, 'course.

So why don't YOU listen UP! And gimme a break...

And respect your elders, as not everybody is brain-dead, just because they're over 30. That was a falsehood.. a meme.. propagated by the Hippy Generation: (Forget who it was that wrote this, Abby Hoffman?) "Don't trust ANYBODY over 30".

Some-a those of that age grew up, and some are still playing Peter Pan, and the youth of today don't even know the difference.

Posted by: J. Toran on June 18, 2004 09:00 AM

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And when I say "I told Shelley", I mean over-the-phone. So I actually KNOW FOR A FACT that she talks with RageBoy (over-the-phone), but do NOT know what she told him. Just know what he posted.

And I wrote NOTHING on the subject, until after the Iowa Caucus, and I think it wasn't until after New Hampshire.

So that is a fucking bullshit lie, that I helped squash Dean.

Trippi-Dean raised another $10 MILLION fucking dollars, I gather, after Iowa.. and I was just trying to save the American Public some money, is all. I think I helped, in an insignificant way, but I commented to the assholes who were the "thought-leaders", and who are STILL considered "thought-leaders" btw. And who knows, mebbe saved some people from getting "ripped off".

Only person I recall listening, over at Many2Many at the time, was Dr. Clay Shirky. Practically nobody else had ears to hear with.


No, I'm not well-liked in the blog world.

Wonder why?

Posted by: J. Toran on June 18, 2004 09:15 AM

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http://www.ce399.net/bibliography.htm

http://www.ce399.net/pretext_for_war.htm

Posted by: ce399.net on June 19, 2004 03:39 PM

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Hey, JToran,

Just wanted to say, you seem to be doing your very very best to make sure that noone else posts anything in this thread -making fun of and intimidating all other posters, and confusing people as to which side you are on, just so that you can continue to post.

This sort of behaivior is typical of people that wander from blog to blog, actiuvely trying to keep people from talking about something that they dont want to be true.
I will never know the truth about you, obviously, because you'd claim to be a purple martian if it gave you the chance to keep smothering this thread. But, If i could, id bet a LARGE amount of money that you are in fact a conservative Republican, and that you voted for Bush (if you were old enough to do so). And i suspect, you are horrified at what bush has done, at some level. but rather than admit that to yourself, you spin justifications and tom-clancy-esque macho soundbites about the 'realities of war'.

I will not post again to argue with you. this is the one and only time i will say this. Please. Stop hogging the mike. We have all made mistakes in judgement. It is no sin to admit it. Sit down, shut up for a while, and reflect on this situation

Posted by: halfjack on June 23, 2004 12:20 AM

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IThis was the first time I visited this blog. I found it very interesting to read all the comments (both sides--except the nasty name-calling ones) until J. Toran started posting and, as "halfjack" noted, hogging the mike. Toran doesn't really have anything to say, just thinks he is smart and likes to hear himself. I will check back to read what all you intelligent thinkers have written in a couple of weeks and maybe J. Toran will have gone away somewhere else by then.

Posted by: visitor on June 26, 2004 08:24 AM

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I read the whole thing in one sitting, and I found Toran interesting except that he wrote so much and with such a superior tone.

One thing that struck me was when he pointed out that Clinton tried to cruise-missile bin Laden and then bin Laden probably tried to fly a plane into the white house. I'd never made that connection. But then, it wasn't bin Laden's first try at the WTC. Maybe it was coincidence about the cruise missile.

And then there was this:

>We have an option here, which are mutually
>exclusive (so you vote for one, the other, or not
>at all):

>alpha) Back the current Iraqi Government, backed by the Coalition Forces
> gamma) Give Saddam Hussein his freedom and return him to power

There are other choices. We could pull out and let Allawi handle the militias on his own. If he likes democracy he might arrange a sort of democracy -- one gunman, one vote. It isn't necessary for the biggest militia to win, they could make an Assembly and vote their gunmen and on each issue the majority wins without actually having to shoot people. Or Allawi might try to take it all and likely find out he doesn't have enough gunmen loyal to him personally.

After we pull out we might likely be able to send in reconstruction workers with reasonable safety. We'd clearly be building for them, not for us. Make it clear that nobody's going to pay ransom for them if they're kidnapped.

Or we could invite Iraq to be the USA's 51st state. We'd probably have to change the constitution, but we could do that. They might not accept. But if they did? Two senators and representatives amounting to maybe 7 to 10% of the House? They'd have a lot more influence over us and the world than they can as an independent nation. Not so much worry for the kurds etc. If they want a democracy, why not join the biggest one, with the strongest army?

If I could take back the last 15 months, Saddam gets his decrepit country back, we get back our 200 billion dollars, and all the expendables we expended, and the lives -- I'd do it. I'd rather try something different. For example, if we could have offerred Saddam a hundred million dollars and the best protection money can buy if he and his family would go into exile and spend the rest of his life in France, would he accept? If he did it wouldn't get him punishment for his crimes, but it would be a [b]much[/b] cheaper way to get him to stop committing them. And then if we offerred iraq fifty billion dollars if they'd set up a democracy under our supervision.... We'd go in with propagandists and educators and tell them what we like about our system, and they'd have to listen some and then discuss it as a nation and set up what they wanted. Former torturers etc who didn't trust the amnesty could ask asylum and we'd set them up in the USA with protection and a modest income. If it worked it would be much cheaper and we'd only have to kill a few people. No DU, no Reserves wasting their lives in the desert, hardly any americans killed or wounded, way cheaper. And if it didn't work we'd be in a good position to try something else. Far cheaper and maybe casualties would be low.

It's silly to argue it with Saddam as the only other choice. Even worse -- Titov was a hard man who ran Yugoslavia, and he kept the ethnic violence down, both through force of personality and by the pointing out that the USSR would move in given the slightest public disunity to work with. After Titov died and the USSR fell Yugoslavia split and did ethnic cleansing.

If things go badly and iraq turns into a genocidal war, I might find myself remembering Saddam fondly. He tortured his enemies, he killed people, but the genocide could be even worse. Too soon to tell.

There's more to it than asking if we're better off. How would we know? Did we do something to get bin Laden so fired up about us? Maybe when we looked at the big effects of whatever we did we thought we were better off then, too. It's silly to judge moral choices on short-run results.

Posted by: J Thomas on July 1, 2004 01:58 AM

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About this post by jon on June 11:
>>>


I'd like to point out to him if he'll clean the sh** out of his ears and listen that:
1) cs didn't say American soldiers!

2)tungsten/lead is NOT radioactive

And as for torture:
a) it wasn't limited to one site or one unit
b) guard units under those situations would normally be directly under reg. Army command.

jon, when you don't know what the heck it is you're talking about please just shut up!

Posted by: ted on July 14, 2004 07:52 PM

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http://www.traprockpeace.org/iraqi_child_prisoners.htm

German TV reports that Iraqi children have been held and abused in US controlled prisons in Iraq. In the report, a US soldier gives an account of an Iraqi child who was tortured and presented to his father in prison to get the father to talk. The soldier also reported a "secret children's wing in the horror prison of Abu Ghraib" and another witness reported mistreatment of children there.

"We have recorded a total of 107 children between January and May of this year in the course of 19 visits to 6 different detention places. And it must be emphasized that these are detention places that are controlled by coalition troops." International Red Cross

"The U.S. government has to respond to this report, it must give concrete information about how old the children are, the grounds on which they have been detained, and under what circumstances they were incarcerated. And here we do not know the names of the children or how many children are there. That is scandalous." Ammesty International

See both the original German with an original English translation of the German TV report at
http://www.traprockpeace.org/iraqi_child_prisoners.htm

Posted by: Charles Jenks on July 15, 2004 06:37 PM

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I read "The Grey Zone" in the New Yorker when it came out and was expecting that everyone would pick up on it and there would be howls of rage about the tortures.The content was ignored. only comments in the media were personal ones about Hersh. When "Pretext for war" came out it literally blew my mind, sentence by sentence. Again hardly any comments. Yesterday I heard on KPFA that Hersh spoke at an ACLU meeting and when he got to a certain point in the speech, he was "whisked" off stage, preumably because what he was saying was too strong.(Does anyone have further information about that?)If this is what really happened then things are pretty bad.
Fahrenheit 911 opened in Great Britain last week. Hardly more that a passing word on BBC online about how it is being received there. Awhile back I read a "novel" by John LeCarre "Absolutely Freinds" about the Intelligence community. Chilling..with the ring of truth. Passing mention in the media. Clarke came and went.
Someone mentioned how it must have felt to be a Jew in Germany. To me, what is more scary, is that WE, the American people, might be more like the Germans who chose "not to know" about what was happening to the Jews.
It's hard not to be paranoid.I just discovered this site and am grateful. Thanks.

Posted by: elepet on July 19, 2004 03:38 AM

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I read "The Grey Zone" in the New Yorker when it came out and was expecting that everyone would pick up on it and there would be howls of rage about the tortures.The content was ignored. only comments in the media were personal ones about Hersh. When "Pretext for war" came out it literally blew my mind, sentence by sentence. Again hardly any comments. Yesterday I heard on KPFA that Hersh spoke at an ACLU meeting and when he got to a certain point in the speech, he was "whisked" off stage, preumably because what he was saying was too strong.(Does anyone have further information about that?)If this is what really happened then things are pretty bad.
Fahrenheit 911 opened in Great Britain last week. Hardly more that a passing word on BBC online about how it is being received there. Awhile back I read a "novel" by John LeCarre "Absolutely Freinds" about the Intelligence community. Chilling..with the ring of truth. Passing mention in the media. Clarke came and went.
Someone mentioned how it must have felt to be a Jew in Germany. To me, what is more scary, is that WE, the American people, might be more like the Germans who chose "not to know" about what was happening to the Jews.
It's hard not to be paranoid.I just discovered this site and am grateful. Thanks.

Posted by: elepet on July 19, 2004 03:39 AM

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I read "The Grey Zone" in the New Yorker when it came out and was expecting that everyone would pick up on it and there would be howls of rage about the tortures.The content was ignored. only comments in the media were personal ones about Hersh. When "Pretext for war" came out it literally blew my mind, sentence by sentence. Again hardly any comments. Yesterday I heard on KPFA that Hersh spoke at an ACLU meeting and when he got to a certain point in the speech, he was "whisked" off stage, preumably because what he was saying was too strong.(Does anyone have further information about that?)If this is what really happened then things are pretty bad.
Fahrenheit 911 opened in Great Britain last week. Hardly more that a passing word on BBC online about how it is being received there. Awhile back I read a "novel" by John LeCarre "Absolutely Freinds" about the Intelligence community. Chilling..with the ring of truth. Passing mention in the media. Clarke came and went.
Someone mentioned how it must have felt to be a Jew in Germany. To me, what is more scary, is that WE, the American people, might be more like the Germans who chose "not to know" about what was happening to the Jews.
It's hard not to be paranoid.I just discovered this site and am grateful. Thanks.

Posted by: elepet on July 19, 2004 03:39 AM

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Sorry about the triple post! Something strange happened with the computer...didn't seem to be posting properly so i kept trying.

Posted by: elepet on July 19, 2004 03:45 AM

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The US Navy's Maletailhook eight year old coverup of Sexual stalking, spycamming, abuse, conditions of confinment abuse:

Where is the indignation and outrage about this case, which affects every US Military Servicman and woman?


Does Mr. Seymour Hersh know about this case right here in the US?

Does the New Yorker?
Go to this website to circumvent the censorship:


http://www.amicusveritas.org/AMPLP/chronology.htm

Posted by: peter paul Ver zola on July 24, 2004 05:29 AM

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The US Navy's Maletailhook eight year old coverup of Sexual stalking, spycamming, abuse, conditions of confinment abuse:

Where is the indignation and outrage about this case, which affects every US Military Servicman and woman?


Does Mr. Seymour Hersh know about this case right here in the US?

Does the New Yorker?
Go to this website to circumvent the censorship:


http://www.amicusveritas.org/AMPLP/chronology.htm

Posted by: peter paul Ver zola on July 24, 2004 05:29 AM

____

The US Navy's Maletailhook eight year old coverup of Sexual stalking, spycamming, abuse, conditions of confinment abuse:

Where is the indignation and outrage about this case, which affects every US Military Servicman and woman?


Does Mr. Seymour Hersh know about this case right here in the US?

Does the New Yorker?
Go to this website to circumvent the censorship:


http://www.amicusveritas.org/AMPLP/chronology.htm

Posted by: peter paul Ver zola on July 24, 2004 05:29 AM

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OK, Sorry if I'm repeating the obvious here...

If Bush were to be found so guilty in the American public's eye that he would step down, or be impeached, who would take his place? Dick Cheney, right? So we'd have to simultaneously prove Cheney's guilt as well, bringing us to the speaker of the House as the next president (unless they've changed that law, too).

My point is that I don't think we'll see any more of that evidence until after the election, or at least until its too late to impeach before the election, that way the people can choose a President and vice-President, rather than have them appointed. Hitler rose to power amid similar confusion. Remember Gerald Ford was never elected. America's biggest danger may be 4 more years of Bush, or it may be an (another?) unelected leader stepping into a Patriot Act-protected American presidency, with the unchecked power to do as they wish.

Having to sit through this time knowing we have an administration who would arrest, detain indefinitely, torture, or kill every enemy it has, both foreign and domestic, in order to remain in power, is what scares me more than anything. Except knowing that our children must live in the future we make for them. Or the future we allow others to make.

The size of Congress has not grown in so long, the actual representation of the people has weakened, meaning that the same number of people in Congress represent many more people, effectively increasing their power. With all the money we spend on military ops, perhaps we should reserve some to spend a little on our Legislative infrastructure, to provide better representation. 535 Congresspersons, 9 Justices, a President and his minions wield the power of 280 Million. Our representative democracy has been stretched too thin. Its time to either reduce the Federal governement to a size these few can actually manage, or we need to allow more representatives of the people to represent the diverse interests of the population, reducing the effective power each individual in Washington wields.

We need to get rid of the Patriot Act, impose greater limits on government (not people - marry who you want, most of us don't care), and we need to consider a True Democracy as a replacement for our Representative Democracy. One person, one vote, no exceptions. NO exceptions. My teenage nephews should have a vote too. Prisoners and felons, too. Imagine the level of responsibility this would mean for educating our families. Now compare that to what you get in return for your tax dollars. How disparate? Do you think a True Democracy would vote in favor of a war without evidence of its necessity? For torture? To spend its own money as frivolously as our current government? We need to stop preaching freedom, and start making it.

I welcome comments. Thanks.

Posted by: RingLeader on July 28, 2004 10:31 AM

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