Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)

I would say good for John McCain - but isn't he still campaigning for Bush-Cheney?

Senator McCain protects the honor of the Republicans, while hoping for the best man to win, and my hat is off to him.

Agreed. Liberals need to get over this pipedream that McCain is coming to save the day - he's just a politician with a little more leash than the rest.

How dare McCain turn our attention away from the corner we've turned? We will never turn our backs from freedom. We will not listen to those dark voices who question the resolve of our economy. The pessimists will have you believe that we don't have enough jobs. I believe that they're pessimists. I believe in America.

America truly has turned the corner. We're spreading freedom and liberty. And God says in the bible that that is good.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks McCain may be a bit of a slime himself? He's sounding self-righteous but ineffectual. Ugh.

If there's one thing a grunt hates, it's a gung- ho commander. Especially one who wins medals when he doesn't. Especially one in another unit, who makes his unit look bad.

A guy could get hurt trying to do that sort of stuff.

McCain has been behaving this year as if he had been drinking the same kool-aid as they gave Colin Powell. These comments nudge him back up a little in my esteem--he still faces a lot of ground to recover.

At the same time, I remain wary. After the way the Bush/Rove machine treated McCain in the primaries, when he cozied up to Bush this spring, they either twisted his arm (which I can't fathom, althought it is possible that they have dirt on him) or else he put his career ambition above his integrity. (And look at what playing along with the Rove machine has done for Powell's career.)

Now McCain's sense of decency has conveniently returned. Interesting.

I am concerned that this may be an orchestrated good cop/bad cop show, and that McCain is being set up as a replacement on the Republican ticket if...for some poll-driven, Rove-directed reason...there were accidentally and surprisingly a need for a short-notice replacement.

McCain on the ticket would certainly take the wind out of the sails of the "anyone but bush" school.

I am skeptical for now.

What I'd like to see McCain do is demand that the Bush campaign denounce the ad and that those running the ad pull it or he'll make an ad for the Kerry campaign, not endorsing Kerry for president, but, praising his military record, valor, and leadership. That would impress me.

*alarm*

Huh? Say, what time is it. I think set my alarm clock wrong anrd overslept again.

I have heard that these slime are claiming that Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted.

As difficult as it is for public figures to sue, this is one of the cases in which a lawsuit would probably be advisable. Until these people pay a serious penalty, one that leaves their ears ringing, others will follow in their footsteps.

I think McCain -tries- to be, and -wants- to be a good Republican-- but keeps re-discovering that he can't. I know a number of people like him.

Valor.

Some understand it, others don't. Clearly, John McCain and John Kerry do.

Barry: Well said. I have always thought McCain was an honorable man. If my thesis is correct, he'll do exactly what you recommended (before you were awaken - I guess my thesis is out there in some dream world).

McCain will probably wake up next to the head of his favorite horse and backtrack tomorrow.

If Cheney suddenly had another heart attack, he could leave the regime for health reasons.

If Bush demanded that the ad agency stop "Their" vicious ads against a man who had served his country honorably, Bush would appear to be compassionate.

If Bush announced that McCain would replace Cheney as his vice president, they'd possibly win many swing votes.

Perhaps the reason both Powell and McCain "Found religion" with the Bush regime wasn't because of blackmail but instead promises of power and glory.

The US voters are gullable enough to buy into this scenario and Bush remains for another four years.

Scary but possible.

What exactly were John Kerry's wounds? He was wounded three times right? And was in country for four months? That means he was wounded once every 40 days. Was there any recovery time or was he such a hero that he didn't need any? Interesting....

Posted by wtf at August 5, 2004 12:10 PM

Was that during his first or second tour?

4 months in combat? That's not the worst of it. You know what I'm getting sick and tired of is all that talk about the 'greatest generation' and Omaha Beach. Did you know that only lasted a couple of days?

As long as he continues to campaign for SlimeCo as they destroy this country, McCain is culpable.

PROUD TO BE PART OF THE REPUBLICAN SLIME MACHINE!

REPORT FROM THE FRONT FINAL THOUGHTS – the Vietnam Veterans against Kerry demonstration at the DNC.

It’s now been a week since the Vietnam Vets serenaded John Kerry at the Fleet Center and in front of his house. The thing that amazes me the most is the degree to which the mainstream media has totally ignored our legitimate expressions of anger at the con job the Democrat National Committee was trying to foist on America so they could grab more power over us.

My wife, the fabulous Cindy, reminded me of PT Barnum’s favorite saying “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.” The latter is what Kerry and his minions are trying to do to America this election season. Apparently they think us Vietnam Era Vets are senile by now and don’t remember his treachery that caused us to lose that war and denied us the honor we so richly earned.

I have this warning to the veterans of latter generations:

IF JOHN KERRY IS ELECTED, I PROMISE YOU HE WILL STEAL YOUR HONOR AS HE STOLE OURS.”

Back to our demonstration and march. The media was there outside the Fleet Center by the hundreds and I had hundreds of cameras in my face as we advanced our banner into their consciousness. I personally was interviewed perhaps twenty times and I saw numerous other comrades interviewed also. WHERE ARE THOSE TAPES? ARE THEY BEING HIDDEN ON PURPOSE?

I will say that Channel Five ABC in Boston did show brief snippets of our efforts Wednesday and Thursday on their eleven o’clock news and another guy handed my daughter a cell phone and a voice told her:

“You’re on the radio, how old are you?” To which she answered “Nine.”

He then asked “Why don’t you like John Kerry?” and she answered “Because he’s a liar and I don’t like his chin.”

But that was all I know of. Kerry can never win if we can get the word out that two thirds of all Vietnam Veterans dislike him intensely, but how are we going to do that if the media will ignore us?

The following links describe my experience those nights and a few pictures I took of the situation:

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the.html

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/07/report_from_the_1.html

http://pep.typepad.com/photos/viet_vets_at_the_dnc/index.html

Meanwhile, George W. Bush, the Fortunate One, was drinking beer, grabbing coed ass, and cruising thru a Gentleman's Tour of Yale. To be followed by the Party Time that was "service" in the Texas Natl. Guard. No medals for that.

WTF, WTF, crewing and commanding swift boats was one of the most hazardous MOSs in Vietnam. Good for Kerry for volunteering in the first place. All Bush had to worry about was a good bruising from falling off the bar stool.

As usual, most of you are having a hard time accepting the truth. The Swift Boat Veterans have the facts on their side--and it isn't pretty for Kerry. As I'm typing, I'm listening to one of them on the radio describing the lies Kerry has told about his combat record.

This guy was on one of the other boats involved in Kerry's Bronze Star--which no one knew about at the time, indeed the medal wasn't authorirized until the 1980s and is signed by John Lehman!--he himself pulled THREE Americans out of the river that day. He also says there was not any hostile fire directed at them from the river banks during the rescues, nor did anyone know that Kerry had been wounded.

Kerry appears to be a pathological liar according to the evidence available.

Did Bill Clinton ever, ever, utter a negative syllable about the honorable war records of GHW Bush or Bob Dole? No.

Unlike with Bush, Clinton's Vietnam-era activities were exhaustively chronicled by the SCLM. Where was Bush again in 72-73?

We're seeing Karl Rove at work here -- just like with McCain in S. Carolina and Max Cleland in Georgia. They have no record to run on, so they smear.

Truth stands on it's own two feet. The right wing republicans don't own it and no matter how loud they shout their lies, at the end of the day truth prevails.

Wow, Patrick - it took you over 20 posts to show up and start the rose food coming. If it weren't for WTF and the other feces-slinging monkeys, my roses would have starved.

Next time, try to be first. Your 'material' is always the strongest, and makes my roses really, really bloom.

'What exactly were John Kerry's wounds? He was wounded three times right? And was in country for four months? That means he was wounded once every 40 days. Was there any recovery time or was he such a hero that he didn't need any? '

A Purple Heart is awarded for a wound suffered from enemy action. It has to be approved by your commander and treated and verifited by your medical officer. Not all wounds require recovery time -- anyone who follows the news from Iraq will note reports of all sorts of minor injuries that are treated, with the soldiers returning to duty the next day.

Under intense combat (as PT-Boats faced), 3 wounds in 4.5 months is not at all uncommon. I believe one of the wounds required 1-2 days of rest.

But please keep up the slander. It just reveals your desperation.

You know whats hysterical. This man on another boat claims to remember and knows the exact details of what someone else in another boat did 35 years ago. By contrast, apparently the man whose life Kerry saved and pulled out of the water remembers differently.

Bush went AWOL, at best. Deserted is more appropriate to the facts known.

He lied about it in his book.

He lied about releasing his records.

He let's these slanders go w/o comment.

And the *Dems* are "filled with hate" / supported by "hate-filled groups."

"So what were the wounds? There must be records of this sort of thing."

Read his Purple Heart Citations. You clearly haven't even done that.

"And if it was such intense combat, how did he have time for staged photo ops"

Gee, I wonder troops in Iraq found time to take photos despite intense combat. Could the fact that they weren't fighting day and night, even when fighting intensely be the reason ?

I mean, we have photos of Bob Kerrey (not John Kerry) in Vietnam.

I have read the wounds

1) His gun jammed and shrapnel burned his arm

2) He was hit be shrapnel in the thigh, no treatment was needed.

3) A mine exploded and shrapnel hit him in the arm again.

After three "wounds" servicemen were eligible to request reassignment away from the combat zone and John Kerry, the bold and daring War Hero did just that.

The urban legends page (non parisan) has an excellent sendup of wtf's nonsensical letter here .

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

WTF, wtf?

Nah, they do the same to themselves http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&u=/nm/20040805/ts_nm/bush_misspeak_dc_2&printer=1 :

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we," Bush said.

The funny thing is that kerry and Mccain were the 2 senators who pushed for normalization of relations with Vietnam. No one else could do so politically. Both came under vicious attack for that, and wtf has reproduced soem of that.

[ I suppose Bob Kerrey could have done so too, come to think of it]

Hey wtf, snopes says that long litany of lies you just cut and pasted into BJDL's blog is FALSE.
I'll follow your example of cutting and pasting:
"Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a Sealords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return to and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Back in 1969, Navy regulations specified that any soldier wounded in combat three times be automatically reassigned away from a combat zone to an assignment of his choosing (unless the thrice-wounded soldier specifically requested to stay). "

WTF

I have no idea whether John Kerry's lying, if something is fishy about his decorations or not (I've never been a fan), but are you suggesting that there weren't US atrocities in Vietnam?

And why does Kerry's blemished service record serve him worse than Bush's? Or is this just the Repub song sheet? What was the source of your long post?

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com

Vietnam Veterans against John Kerry is organized by a Vet named Ted Sampley who has some grudge against Kerry and McCain. Here is what McCain said about him

"I strongly caution reporters who may be contacted by or are interested in Mr. Ted Sampley and the various organizations he claims to represent, and his opinions on the subject of Senator Kerry, or any subject for that matter, to investigate thoroughly Mr. Sampley's background and history of spreading outrageous slander and other disreputable behavior before inadvertently lending him or his allegations any credibility.

I am well familiar with Mr. Sampley, and I know him to be one of the most despicable people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. I consider him a fraud who preys on the hopes of family members of missing servicemen for his own profit. He is dishonorable, an enemy of the truth, and despite his claims, he does not speak for or represent the views of all but a few veterans. The many veterans I know would think it a disgrace to be considered a comrade or supporter of Ted Sampley."

wtf, and the other feces flingers:

So, when'd you serve. Spend any time in country? Can't imagine how someone could be wonded 3 times in 4 months while on active combat duty? I get it, you must have been a REMF. Nah, even a REMF would have heard enough to know not to spout your BS. And he'd likely be too ashamed to as well.

I know. You must have been in that new SOF unit I keep hearing about, you know, the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.
Do they give you guys Purple Hearts for carpal tunnel syndrome? Because I can see where you'll are putting yourselves at great risk for it in the line of duty.

You worthless pieces of slime aren't fit to lick the soles of that man's shoes. Flinging your filth at Kerry for his service you fling it at every man who ever served, fought, killed and died for this country. How could you utter a word about a man who volunteered for military service, volunteered for active combat duty in Vietnam, volunteered for a second tour?

How could you shameless cretinous cowards utter a word against the service of any man who was shot at? Who had to kill? Who saw other men he knew, maybe a buddy maybe just some newbie, men he talked with, joked with, ate with, slept next to, patrolled with, counted on, saw them shot or blown up by a booby-trapped mine, and maybe even had such a man die in one's arms? Did you ever have a man you know die in your arms? Did you ever have a man you know, a man who maybe just the other day or that morning was talking to you about his newborn baby daughter or this hot chick he had been dating and was looking forward to banging when his tour was up, or how he'd always wanted to go to college, and the next moment he's in your arms, torn to shit, a fucking ugly mess, blood everywhere and he's looking into your eyes and you into his as his life and all of his hopes and dreams are snuffed out. Gone. Has that ever happened to you?
You are shameless and I spit on you all. Attack his politics for all it's worth, hell, even lie about it, but this, this coming from a bunch of low-life sissies is more than I can take.

Have a little shame.
Then STFU!

PS I know how the wingnuts will reply to this. They'll start asking me about my service and record. They'll try to "catch me out" and if they think I have no service record and no actual combat experience then that makes everything I have said a lie. Well guess what, I don't. I'm a girl. That's right. A little 12 year old girl. Now go ahead a give what I've written above to someone you may know who actually did serve and saw combat and ask them if a word of it rings false, tell them a 12 year old girl wrote it and ask them is this true or not?

Worthless, slimeball scum you make me want to puke.

'he himself pulled THREE Americans out of the river that day. He also says there was not any hostile fire directed at them from the river banks during the rescues'

Just curious, but if there was no hostile fire, what were those people doing in the river ? Were they swimming ?

The anti-Kerry spammers are too persistent and one-sided to be convincing. Ignorance? Desperation? Hard to give them any credit.

wtf,

The interesting thing is, if your whole story turned out to be true, and I don't buy it, we'd still be better off with President Kerry than Bush. That's how pathetic the current administration is.

So you can rant all you want but the most you'll ever accomplish is to indict the officers that awarded Kerry his medals, convince us all again that the Viet Nam War was one fucked up mess, and make yourself and others look obsessively crazy for fighting so hard to turn Kerry's 35 year old combat action into something less than Bush's Guard adventure.

Now that the election is a referendum on Viet Nam will it mean, after Kerry wins, that we who found the war to be immoral can declare the debate over and won? Will the war apologists finally accept the world's verdict on that sad episode?

Rassmussen Poll supports PUBLIC ENQUIRY PROJECT finding that 2/3 of Vietnam Vets dislike John Kerry

OK YOU DOUBTERS OF OUR FINDINGS, RASSMUSSEN VERY NEARLY AGREES WITH US. OBVIOUSLY RECENT VETS DON'T HAVE THE SAME AX TO GRIND AS VIETNAM VETS SO HIS POLLING RESULTS OF 58% TO 35% IS TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH OUR 66% TO 33% FINDING AMONG VIETNAM VETS.

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/08/rassmussen_poll.html

Thursday August 05, 2004--A Rasmussen Reports survey shows that military veterans prefer George W. Bush over John Kerry by a 58% to 35% margin. Those with no military service favor Kerry by ten percentage points, 51% to 41%...

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Veterans%20Vote.htm

In re, "So the real question is why do people think he (and most Democrats) are weak when it comes to defense? Maybe because there is some truth to it?"

You think Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson were weak on defense? Kennedy threatened WWIII over Cuba, that after pursuing a policy of circling the USSR with nuclear weapons. Even Carter pumped up the military budget, proposed the B-2 bomber, and even called for the development of a neutron-bomb, which was seen with some justification as a first strike weapon. (Let's also not forget that Carter appointed Volcker and began the monetarist turn.)

Nixon ran on getting out of Vietnam. Remember the "Vietnamization" of Vietman?

The amazing thing is that the mantra that dems are weak on defense keeps holding. That's what seems to lead to the weird hawkish posturing of the Democrats.

Also in re, "Bush is not campaigning on his NG service. He would be stupid to do so, because:

1) It isn't anything to be proud of
2) It is irrelevant to being President"

You don't think matters of ethics, duty and then obfuscating failures of ethics and duty are relevant to being President?

Apparently wtf, Patrick Sullivan and others here believe that the U.S. Military is easily duped into giving out multiple medals.

I respect our fighting forces more than that.

And if it were so easy, why didn't everybody garner some cheap medals for themselves? Oh, right, because John Kerry was an eeeevil genius!

Hey Adrian S, didn't you once say you considered your posts here to be respectful debate with a 'colleague'? Now you're proudly smearing left and right. Nice to see you admitting your true nature.

Worthless, all of ya.

wtf,

That's a real nice one. Using those sentences which were a conclusionary comment on the substantive content preceeding. I notice the complete lack of comment about that preceeding content. Not a single answer to any question I asked or charge that I made. Coward. You can't even fight fair with a little 12 year old girl. You are a sissy and a coward, utterly without shame.

wtf,

That's a real nice one. Using those sentences which were a conclusionary comment on the substantive content preceeding. I notice the complete lack of comment about that preceeding content. Not a single answer to any question I asked or charge that I made. Coward. You can't even fight fair with a little 12 year old girl. You are a sissy and a coward, utterly without shame.

Also in re, "Bush is not campaigning on his NG service. He would be stupid to do so, because:

I see that "Mission Accomplished" with the carrier landing and the White House claiming that he actually piloted the plane as an attempt to cash in on it. Of course now that it reminds people of the clusterfuck in Iraq as well as Bush's AWOL and probably desertion from his duty, well, better talk about how Kerry didn't deserve those medals...whine...whine...whine...

"Just curious, but if there was no hostile fire, what were those people doing in the river ? Were they swimming ?"

Posted by erg at August 5, 2004 01:45 PM

Erg, haven't you seen Apocalypse Now? They fell off of their surfboards.

From Aug 2, 2004 New York Times

snip

“In fact, the Democrats' gathering in Boston appears to have helped Mr. Kerry pull even with the president for the first time among veterans who are registered voters, a CBS News poll issued yesterday suggests. After the convention, 48 percent of them favored Mr. Kerry, and 47 percent Mr. Bush. In June, Mr. Kerry trailed Mr. Bush among veterans by 15 percentage points, and by mid-July he had narrowed the gap to six.”

snip

There are 25 million veteran households and they make up 15% of the households in Fla. Take away the 10 percent advantage Bush has had among veteran's and you have a 2.5 % advantage Kerry. Hence this desperate gambit.

The typical response among veteran's is McCain's. Disgust that this is being done. It risks a backlash. Only true believers like Patrick and Adrian go for this stuff. In any case we shall seed. If one is willing to do this o0ne is willing to do anything.

I see hints of desperation here among those supporting Bush.

Why does Patrick hate America so?

i said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here. The correct response by Kerry is to take it directly to Bush. I predict that Kerry will make a statement to the effect that Bush is too much of a coward to make these charges himself (put a bit more diplomatically). Kerry knows how to handle bullies. I'm not worried about this latest attack---I think it will cause another dive for Bush in the polls.

"Just curious, but if there was no hostile fire, what were those people doing in the river ? Were they swimming ?"

According to the officer (Von Odell, iirc) I heard today, they were in a three boat patrol. One of the boats hit a mine (but, contrary to mythology, no second mine exploded and wounded Kerry). All of the men on the boat that had detonated the mine were wounded, several ending up in the river. Kerry's boat beat a speedy retreat--which may have been prudent--and in doing so dumped Mr. Rassman into the river. That's why Kerry returned; to pick up HIS man.

With one disabled boat, the skipper of the second craft unloaded with his 50 calibres on the river banks to suppress any enemy. Once he determined there was no one shooting back at them, he ceased his firing and got about the business of getting the men out of the water, attending to the wounded, and getting a tow line on the disabled Swift Boat. Presumably Kerry's boat also helped.

According to this officer, there was absolutely no enemy fire from the river banks. There was no evidence that Kerry had been wounded, and no one was aware that Kerry had put in for a medal in this action.

Surprise, surprise, Kerry's medal isn't authorized for at least 12 years, if the document detailing it is authentic, because it's signed by John Lehman, Sec'y of the Navy...in the first Reagan Admin.

Now, his former colleagues are disputing his Silver Star too. Saying his version of the events is baloney.

So, we are going to refight Viet Nam, huh. Well, we know where Kerry and McCain, and me and a host of my friends and classmates will be. Does this mean that the President will have to rejoin the TANG and maybe even complete his tour?

As it happens, I just saw Rasmann on TV debating one of the so-called Swift Boat Guys. Given that he was the man pulled out of the water, he should have had a rather clearer idea of what happened than that of other people who were not directly involved in the action of 35 years back.

'Surprise, surprise, Kerry's medal isn't authorized for at least 12 years, if the document detailing it is authentic, because it's signed by John Lehman, Sec'y of the Navy...in the first Reagan Admin'

I don't get it. You're suggesting that Kerry, then a Democrat, not even in the Congress somehow asked for the medal, which was awarded after the fact by the Republican Reagan Administration ?

Incidentally, here is what Geoerge Eliott, his CO said about Kerry's Silver Star

"But I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that,"

"This guy was on one of the other boats involved in Kerry's Bronze Star--which no one knew about at the time, indeed the medal wasn't authorirized until the 1980s and is signed by John Lehman".

Let me be the first to call you a scumbag liar. Kerry's Bronze Star was authorized and awarded by Adm. Zumwalt, Commander, USNF, Vietnam. You (or a smarter and more honest person) could look it up.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/militaryrecords_1.pdf

The later letter from Lehman is just a copy of the original- and they are both part of the offical records. For your information (as we know chickenhawk trolls never served) Zumwalt was in that post only from 10/68 to 5/70. Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for actions in 3/69. Therefore, (I am explaining much that ordinary people can understand just for you) the Bronze Star had to have been awarded before Zumwalt left in 5/70.

"This guy was on one of the other boats involved in Kerry's Bronze Star--which no one knew about at the time, indeed the medal wasn't authorirized until the 1980s and is signed by John Lehman".

Let me be the first to call you a scumbag liar. Kerry's Bronze Star was authorized and awarded by Adm. Zumwalt, Commander, USNF, Vietnam. You (or a smarter and more honest person) could look it up.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/militaryrecords_1.pdf

The later letter from Lehman is just a copy of the original- and they are both part of the offical records. For your information (as we know chickenhawk trolls never served) Zumwalt was in that post only from 10/68 to 5/70. Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for actions in 3/69. Therefore, (I am explaining much that ordinary people can understand just for you) the Bronze Star had to have been awarded before Zumwalt left in 5/70.

The scum who come here to libel Mr. Kerry's valor should be ashamed of themselves. But, as amply proven time and time again, they have no shame.

Here is what the American people will see: A bunch of Republicans, led by the liar who smeared John McCain and a member of Richard Nixon's dirty tricks squad, saying Kerry didn't earn his medals. And, on the other hand, the men who served under his command, and a man saved by his own hand, saying he did.

This is a disgusting new low for Republican politics.

Thats the URl with the full documentation on Kerry's Bronze Star

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Bronze_Star.pdf

It has both Zumwalt's letter and Lehmann's later letter. The consolidated document which has all of Kerry's medals has Zumwalt's Silver Star letter, but for the Brozne Star, has only Zumwalt's letter.

So, when building the consolidated document, the web site included only the later Bronze Star citation. Trust loons like Patrick to make up all sorts of conspiracy theories about it (and they don't even consider how illogical it is to assme that a Republican Reagan Administration would hand out medals to a liberal Democrat]

It is really very hard to hide the connection between these guys and Bush and the Republican Party establishment. Even for those who have had problems connecting the dots it only gets worse.

Snip
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's Republican ties

As Media Matters for America previously noted, on May 4, Salon.com's Joe Conason detailed Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's ties to the Republican Party. In addition to pointing out that the group's founder, John O'Neill, has long-standing ties to the GOP that can be traced back to the Nixon administration, Conason also reported that among the people behind Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is "veteran corporate media consultant and Texas Republican activist Merrie Spaeth, who is listed as the group's media contact."
Snip
And then there is the guy who claims Kerry's wo0unds were self inflicted:
Snip
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth doctor did not sign Kerry's medical record

Dr. Louis Letson, who is featured in the ad claiming to have treated Kerry for the wound that earned him his first Purple Heart and claiming that it was undeserved, was not the medical official who signed Kerry's medical records for the wound. The Kerry campaign noted this fact in a report in The New York Times and a report in the Los Angeles Times that surfaced when Letson first unleashed this attack in May.
Snip

As Conason reported on May 4, "The 'swift boat' veterans attacking John Kerry's war record are led by veteran right-wing operatives using the same vicious techniques they used against John McCain four years ago." Conason explained that Spaeth (the group's media contact) participated during the 2000 Republican primary contest in TV ads that "falsely attack[ed]" McCain's environmental record in California, New York, and Ohio.
Snip
McCain might have been referring as well to attacks on his military record by Ted Sampley and Thomas Burch, both Vietnam veterans, during the 2000 primary season. As Media Matters for America previously reported, Sampley hounded McCain as a "Manchurian Candidate" -- suggesting that the decorated veteran and former prisoner of war was a brainwashed communist agent – Snip

I would note that the Manchrian Candidate line has been renewed by this group.

This is about as crude a forgery as has ever been concocted.

Time for John McCain to climb down off his high horse and smell the coffee. He doesn't speak for all Vietnam veterans and he damn well doesn't decide what speech Vietnam veterans should engage in. Who the hell does he think he is?

Well, it seems the 101st fighting keyboarders are in full swing.

There is a problem with the Swifters arguments.

The doctor and commander now stating Kerrys wounds did not rate a Purple Heart. Did they not fill out the paperwork which granted Kerry the award and now they say he did not deserve the award?

Would not that be felonious behavior on their part, if they knowingly falsified government documents?

Are they _that_ stupid?

Oh, yeah, the likes of Patrick and Spidle. Well, I guess Americans need someone to define the bottom.......

There isn't a poll out there, either for or against Kerry that I'd believe. I look at them all as total fabrications. The major news medias quote their own polls to convince you that the rest of the country feels "This way" so why don't you? And surprisingly enough, their poll results always lean toward far right neo con positions. This is usually followed by a debate of "pundits" who discuss why everyone feels the way they do, according to the latest polls. Viewers, after watching this accept the lie as truth. I use WTF as my example.

Is it true that those among the swift boat veterans (note: the category) who actually served directly with Kerry are the most complimentary, whereas those (eg, "Swift Boat Veterans") who were on other boats or came later are the most critical? The former are logically the most credible, but we really need to get a handle on what happened out there. Is there a way to tell who is more honest?

A curious irony: some of the worst charges against Kerry (found on Drudge in excerpts from the new book _Unfit for Command_), like shooting a wounded unarmed boy who already dropped his RPG launcher, validate to some extent Kerry's claims at the hearings about US misconduct - albeit from Kerry himself (and, from the non-relative Bob Kerry.) Finally, what did that Comission finally report as to the issue of misconduct, atrocities, etc.?

At one point Patrick posted a transcript from CNN where Thurow and Rassman debate the event.
It reveals alot about Patrick's methodology and basic mendacity.

Here is where Patrick left off:
Snip
(Thurow)
I received no fire. But the thing I would like to ask is, we have five boats now, John's returning, and four boats basically dead in the water, working on the 3-boat (ph). If we were receiving fire off the bank, how come not one single boat received one bullet hole, nobody was hit, no sign of any rounds hitting the water while I was in it?
Patricks ends here:

The Answer
WOODRUFF: What about that, Jim Rassmann, quickly?

RASSMANN: There were definitely rounds hitting the water around me. If Mr. Thurlow feels that what his story is purported to be was the case, he had ample opportunity 35 years ago to deal with it. He never did, nor did anyone else. John Kerry did not tell this story. I told this story when I put him in for a Silver Star for coming back to rescue me. The Navy saw fit to reduce it to a Bronze Star for valor.

That's OK with me. But If Mr. Furlow had a problem with that, he should have dealt with it long, long ago. To bring it up now, I think, is very disingenuous. I think that this is partisan motivation on his part and for the part of his whole organization."

There are two important points in this response. First it was Rassman, a special forces guy who put him in for the medal. Second, the Navy would have taken his statement and investigated. As part of that process they would have asked Thurow about his version of events. If thurow, and others had contradicted Rassman's version then there would have been no medal. They thus have this problem. And its a big problem for them. THEY ARE FLIP FLOPPERS.

Kerry's five medals say it all, and repudiate the swift slanderers. I say to them: Read 'em and weep (http://www.isebrand.com/John_Kerry_Patriot_and%20_Leader.htm), you're dealing with The Real Deal.

Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, although the 4 month tour is of course exceptional. what really irks most veterans and active duty military personnel were his ridiculous positions upon returning home from the war with respect to his work with Vietnam Veterans Against the War. if for example he repeated even a tenth of the slander that he made back in the 70's were to be repeated today, there'd be little to no way that he'd be able to win the election. the fact that almost all of the stories that his organization publicized were proven false, and that FSU intelligence officers laugh at how gullible he was, really doesn't do much for his reputation.

To be fair, he has at least apologized about many of his previous positions.

Hey, Jon, just for the record, Tommy Franks thinks what Kerry had to say about what went on in Vietnam was true. When Kerry testified in Congress, no one questioned the minor bit of his testimony dedicated to the issue of war crimes, not even former secretary of the Air Force Senator Symington.

Keep trying, though: you have a ways to go before you equal Patrick and Adrian....

for example he repeated even a tenth of the slander that he made back in the 70's were to be repeated today, there'd be little to no way that he'd be able to win the election.

No, but if he wrote it up for some newspaper to publish he'd probably win a Pulitzer. Just like the Toledo Blade (I believe, I'm going on memory), for just such a series
-Tiger.....help me out here...Kerry actually didn't see that much of the worst kind of atrocities that were testified to. His testimony was fairly bland compared to that of others. But he was a very effective spokesman and organizer. In a word: a leader.

for example he repeated even a tenth of the slander that he made back in the 70's were to be repeated today, there'd be little to no way that he'd be able to win the election.

No, but if he wrote it up for some newspaper to publish he'd probably win a Pulitzer. Just like the Toledo Blade (I believe, I'm going on memory), for just such a series
-Tiger.....help me out here...Kerry actually didn't see that much of the worst kind of atrocities that were testified to. His testimony was fairly bland compared to that of others. But he was a very effective spokesman and organizer. In a word: a leader.

Let's hear it for Brad DeLong!

A few months ago, in the course of a search for Don Rumsfeld's quote ("what we don't know we don't know" - come on, you know the words!), I happened upon a cn/conservative website filled with comments about the universal truths revealed in Rummy's quote (sample, delivered without irony: "If you view it as Boolean logic, it makes perfect sense"). It was wonderful - to paraphrase Martin Cruz Smith, I felt like a crocodile who has found monkeys at play.
So I requested an ID and password and proceeded to post a few critical comments in response to some of the things I saw. Next day, when I visited the site again, I discovered that:

a) none of my comments were posted; and
b) my ID and password wouldn't work.

I e-mailed the site's webmaster, accusing him and his ilk of moral cowardice for refusing to allow anyone with a contrary opinion to post. Of course, I never heard from him either.

But, to his everlastin' credit, Brad allows dingbats like "Free Lover of Flag and Country," "Wetzel," and Adrian Spidle to post things and encourage the free speech that made this country great (and that Bush, Dick "F Yourself" Cheney, and Karl "the Snake" Rove are doing their best to obliterate).

Incidentally - what's a cn/conservative? "Crypto-Nazi." (and a tip of the hat to Gore Vidal.)

"At one point Patrick posted a transcript from CNN where Thurow and Rassman debate the event.
It reveals alot about Patrick's methodology and basic mendacity.

Here is where Patrick left off:
Snip" (the rest deleted)

Posted by Lawrence at August 5, 20

Lawrence, that's Patrick's trademark trick. Assume that any quote that he posts is either incomplete, or was put out by a liar.

John McCain is a hero and the Swiftboat vets are greater heros

As a Blue Water sailor of the US Navy of the Vietnam era I'd like to say that among my shipmates it was the Brown Water sailors of the Swiftboats that we admired the most for their courage and valour. If I remember properly - warning, I do suffer, sometimes, from CRS Syndrome - The swifties suffered a higher rate of death and injury than any other units in Vietnam speeding up and down those treacherous rivers on unarmoured boats without any of the body armour that protects todays American heros.

I AM PERSONALLY OUTRAGED THAT SENATOR MCCAIN WOULD INSULT THESE UNHERALDED AND UNAPPRECIATED AMERICAN HEROS.

McCain has his right to defend his Senate buddy and coconspirator but he has no right to diss and insult my heroic comrades.

Senator McCain, after earning my love and respect;

http://pep.typepad.com/public_enquiry_project/2004/08/john_mccain_is_.html

"So, we are going to refight Viet Nam, huh."

That's what John Kerry says he wants to do; "Bring it on".

Of course, he also says the opposite.

Gee, Patrick, haven't you noticed the Republicans using Vietnam every chance they get, for the past 30 years? Or was that edited out of your memory?

Kerry's former CO, who claimed in a soon-to-be published book that Kerry did not deserve his Silver Star award has now recanted.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/

Uncle Jeffey:

Let's have the name of this site that deleted your posts so we can try it. What do you suppose a sample point of 1 proves?

Uncle Jeffy:

As you can see from my posts above and on other of Brad's posts as well as elsewhere in the commentoblogosphere, I am no lover of wingnuttery but it's true that there is some ancient wisdom in that one quote of the war criminial who is SecDef. It is actually Islamic wisdom. I am an Islamicist by training (note to wingnuts: That is not the same thing as an Islamist, OK? lWe're the ones who study it. So learn the def then know the diff.)
I recall a Persian poem about the various degrees of knowers. I believe it began:

An kasi ke nadanad va nadanad ke nadanad

Someone whao doesn't know and he doesn't know that he doesnt't know.

And so on throughout. That is a classical definition of what is called "compound ignorance." It's the most dangerous kind of ignorance there is, with sky high rates of mortality and morbidity. (To make up an example, say if your auto mechanic believes he can perform successful brain surgery, i.e. he is not aware of his own ignorance of medicine, neuroanatomy, etc, and he sets himself up to remove brain tumors, or to take another COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL example, that is TOTALLY FAR-FETCHED, imagine, if you will someone who believing himself capable of being a president of a large and economically and militarily dominant nation, should decide to enter an election for that presidiency and win it. Perhaps he was under the illusion that he had the capacity for the office because his dad was president and he's got real bad father issues that he hasn't worked out. Now say because he has that name recognition, and because his brother is governor of a crucial swing state (I know, I know it sounds totally unrealistic but it's a hypothetical so stay with me here) and because his VP belongs to the same rod and gun club as several of the justices who sit on that supreme court and they all go out duck hunting together every now and again (especially if there are any important court cases that those justices might hear involving the VP- word to the wise: Legal case involving the VP reaches the Supreme Court, you know it means one thing: There are going to be a lot of dead ducks) well that compoundly ignorant president would be very dangerous indeed. He'd probably ruin every important institution, domestic and international, and leave the nation's finances and it's reputation in tatters all inside of four years. But that can't happen here so no need to worry.)

To return to the war criminal's quote. Compared to the one who is afflicted with compound ignorance the one who knows he is ignorant is enlightened. For only knowing what he lacks is he even able to begin rectifying it and acquiring that knowledge.

So I know it sounded weird and every one in the Dem/Lib/Left camp mocked him for it but I always thought it was the only thing I've ever heard him say that wasn't either stupid bluster or outright lie.

Adrian,
Get help man.

A. Zarkov / Barry Freed -

M. Zarkov, I tried everything I could think of to find the web site that wouldn't allow my post - and darned if I can't find it. I can't even find the e-mail that I sent to the webmaster. I apologize - normally I would retain something like this.

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to "prove" anything, but to contrast the free exchange of ideas that characterizes Brad DeLong's weblog with the one that I encountered. No "proof" attempted.

Barry - I agree that there IS a logic in Rummy's quote. But to make his point in that way is simply going to leave most of the world shaking their heads in confusion at his inability to express himself plainly and simply. There's a British organization that gives awards each year for the most mangled use of the English language, and in announcing Rummy's hands-down win, the president of the organization said, "We think we know what he means, but we don't know." Or, as I put it to people to whom I show the quote: "What good is tough talking if nobody understands what they hell you're saying?"