Brad DeLong's Semi-Daily Journal (2004)

Alas, Bereuter is leaving the Congress. And the GOP slime machine is already claiming he wrote this only because he's bitter.

Okay, people don't agree on the war. I have a question about this whole 'grownup Republican' meme that keeps popping up here.

How is a grownup Republican different from a Democrat from your perspective? As far as I can tell, belief in limited government is childish. Support for the Iraq war is childish. Tax cuts are childish. Spending increases are apparently not childish, but other than that is this anything more than asking Republicans to become Democrats again?

I'm reminded of the asinine comments from the left in the wake of 9/11 to the effect that Bush 'wasted national brotherhood' that could have been harnessed to nationalize the drug industry. Uh, yeah.

Hmm, considering Bereuter is not only not running for re-election this year but even quitting the House early to head up the Asia Foundation -- the real reason behind his sudden discovery of courage to speak his mind before Tom DeLay -- my guess is "no", they can't.

The WSJ gives this story much fuller and deeper coverage than the NYT. By a lot. It's as if the WSJ were testing the reality of it all.

Uh, Jason, can you please turn down the radio that Karl Rove implanted in you neck? It messes up our time delay, and makes you sound stupider than you already are. Now go back to back to NewsMax and tell the other trolls we said hello.

Virginia? Virginia Postrel?

http://www.dynamist.com/weblog/archives/001270.html

By all means, let's have some he-said/he-said (is VP some kinda sexist?) when there is no other story around.

Jason,

I also thought the "grown-up" line was ad hominem, but it isn't. How else to describe strange subset of Republicans that combine virulent social conservatism, aggressive democratic expansion minus diplomacy, and a tax-less spend-more economic agenca. They break from traditional Republican social, economic, foreign policies, and hold it all together with duct tape.

And in the interest of balance, there are grown-up Dems, and there are those that defected and now show up on my door pitching Nader.

Jason Ligon:

Wow, that's almost a city's worth of strawmen you've got there.

I'll just pick one: You think this administration has ANY regard for the classic Republican ideal of 'limited government'? Why?

And whatever happened to fiscal responsibility? Who cuts taxes when there's a war to be fought?

Grownup Republicans remember Republican principles, not just blind loyalty to the name on the masthead.

> As far as I can tell, belief in limited
government
> is childish. Support for the Iraq war is childish.
> Tax cuts are childish. Spending increases are
> apparently not childish, but other than that is
> this anything more than asking Republicans to
> become Democrats again?

My understanding of Brad's "grown up" expression is that it refers to someone who can be influenced by empirical data. That is, they are capable of noticing if their idea didn't work as intended, and capable of changing course. Among other things, they do not believe in a tradeoff free universe, as does Bush apparently.

So you can believe in limited government in a particular case (e.g. loosening corporate regulations) but it's childish to do so without either explaining how the intended regulatory goals will be met without government (i.e., an empirically tested market solution--or an empirically plausible one that will be applied as long as it works) or at least claim that the adverse effects of reducing regulation will be acceptable.

Support for the Iraq war is not childish in itself, but the need for war has to meet a high standard. Rep. Bereuter has taken a look and concluded that in light of recent evidence, it does not.

Tax cuts are not childish, but tax cuts without spending cuts is childish because it's unsustainable--unless you're a supply sider who thinks we're on the wrong side of the Laffer curve and will get more revenue by cutting taxes--which is childish in itself, because empirical evidence shows we're not (and clearly even rightwingers such as Grover Norquist agree that cutting taxes will lower revenue or else he would not be touting the virtues of drowning government in a bathtub).

The notion of a "grown up" Republican is someone who is truly conservative in the sense of wanting to hold onto the status quo, not change it radically. Disruptive solutions likely to have huge unintended consequences are eschewed by such people. But I don't think that Brad would ever suggest that grown up Republicans have the same set of values as Democrats. The point is that they propose well thought out policies that are consistent with their stated values and actually seem to hold out some hope (based on experience) of achieving them.

Its funny how these life-time politicians are coming out of the woodwork and not agreeing with the administration, especially when they are not up for reelection. When Dems disagree with the administration, we are anti-american, when long-time Republican standard bearers like Bereuter finally speak from the heart, they are bitter.Hmmmm. I, a Nebraska Democrat (one of 3 in captivity), am finally proud of Doug Bereuter. Well done Doug. Now, if we can just get Bob Kerry to run for president...

Its funny how these life-time politicians are coming out of the woodwork and not agreeing with the administration, especially when they are not up for reelection. When Dems disagree with the administration, we are anti-american, when long-time Republican standard bearers like Bereuter finally speak from the heart, they are bitter.Hmmmm. I, a Nebraska Democrat (one of 3 in captivity), am finally proud of Doug Bereuter. Well done Doug. Now, if we can just get Bob Kerry to run for president...

Bereuter is cited as a "member of the Republican foreign=poicy establishment." Senator Lugar, also a member in good standing, has been willing to criticize the administration's handling of the Iraq war, as well as foreign policy in general. Yes, Bereuter had already decided to leave office before making his objections overwhelmingly clear, but it is not the first time he crossed the White House. Regarding the White House claim ahead of attacking Iraq that it had the authority to go to war without seeking further congressional approval, Bereuter disagreed, and went on to argue for covert action, rather than invasion, to remove Saddam. He warned that the White House had not made the case for war "to the allies, to the Arab states, and they cdrtainly haven't made it to the United States, to the people and the Congress."

This, I believe, is what you have in mind when speaking of "adults"...?

"How is a grownup Republican different from a Democrat from your perspective?"

Perhaps it's instructive to consider examples. Some "grown up" Republicans: Chuck Hegel, John McCain, Richard Lugar, Lincoln Chafee, Olympia Snowe, Warren Rudman, Tom Kean, Susan Collins, Brent Scowcroft, William Cohen, Bob Dole, Lawrence Korb.

Now compare them with some of the knuckle-walkers in positions of leadership in the House right now, and you'll have a pretty good idea of what distinguishes them.

Speaking of the 'grownup' meme, I defy anyone to go to visit the official Bush-Cheney web site and tell me it wasn't created by a 12 year old. It's like they're running for 8'th grade class president as the popular kids against one of the 'nerds'.

re: grown-up Republicans.

I think that Krugman's thesis of a revolutionary power is apposite here. But with the added catch that that there is none so blind as he who will not see. It is almost as though the 1980s British labour party was winning with its Socialist Worker/Communist Party agenda. In the UK, it took the Labour party a lot of effort to kick those guys out and they were losing elections. Republicans have been winning elections so that must make it harder.

And truly I do believe that the current US republican party is closer to the Socialist Workers than anything else.

Kuas, You're not kidding. The Bush/Cheney site is astonishing. Truly childish. Breathtaking.

A reporter asked Bush a few months ago what he planned to do with his campaign funds. The president replied, "Just wait."

So...is this it?

Jason, one difference is - Daschle serverd, Gephardt served, Bonier served, Gore served, Rangel served, Ted Kennedy served, Bob Kerry served, Cleland served, Tom Harkin served, Hollings served, Gray Davis served, Pete Stark served, all of your right wing punching bags. Oh yeah, I served too.

Now let's look at who acts like they served and didn't. Limbaugh didn't, Hannity didn't, Speaker Hastert didn't, Gingrich didn't, cockroach Delay didn't, Dick Armey didn't, Bill Frist didn't, Mitch McConnell didn't, Ashcroft didn't, Lott, didn't Rove didn't, B-1 Bob Dornan DID NOT, Phil Gramm didn't.

Are you getting the picture????? Jason?? Grownups don't send kids to war unless it is necessary to defend this country because they have served and know the hell of war. Its not some game where dead kids are a profit center for Halliburton. Remember Grace Slick singing "War's good business invest your son"? Republicans are not grownups and haven't learned that lesson, nor do they invest their sons.

Oh yeah Jason, grownups don't go AWOL like Bush. Nobody knows how much coke went up his nose, hell, they don't even know where he was in Alabama.

That is the difference, if you haven't served, don't be so anxious to send somebody else.

"...Can they figure out how to take back their party?..."

Well, constituency-party letters are certainly not the way.

Ok, what we want to do is find one or more female grownup Republicans aged 16-45 and put him out to stud. The species may not go extinct after all.

We actually need several different unrelated pairs, so that in later generations inbreeding doesn't become a problem. We should check with various zoos around the country to see what they have.

We can probably finance this with some sort of petting zoo where you can have your picture taken with him, etc.

Zizka, there just aren't enough left to form a viable gene pool.

Now perhaps, with future improvements genetic technology, it will be possible to harvest eggs from the others and remove the extra chromosone manually before fertilization...

Now I see why they're so dead set against stem cell research.

It's the "figure out" part of your meme that I don't grok, Brad. If you and I had NFL teams that played each other, but you got to have 20 men on the field at once, and I only got to have 3, I wouldn't be able to 'figure out' how to win. My team would just get stomped, and that would be the end of it.

Since the handful of grownup Pubbies regard themselves as being on the same side as the zealots, they don't get the snot kicked out of them. They just don't make a difference - kinda like the Dems between 9/11 and the end of 2003, only more so.

I keep saying they could have far more influence on our national debates by breaking off and starting their own party. It might be a small party, but by being the national 'swing vote', they could wield killer influence. Susan Collins would be the Senate's answer to Sandra Day O'Connor. And both parties would have to move towards the center, as defined by this new party, in a bidding war to win its votes.

Tadhgin, I think you meant to say National Socialist Party, right?

"The economy is strong and getting stronger. The President’s pro-growth policies have helped drive the economy and move the recovery forward, putting more money in the pockets of America’s families and laying a foundation for robust growth and job creation now and for years to come." ...ha ha! this is humour from the Bush-Cheney Website... if you say it, it is true.

Are we allowed to use profanity here? Because if so, I'd like to use some of it to describe Doug Bereuter. Since he's retiring, this may be one of my last chances, and this seems as good a place as any to have a frank exchange of views, as the Vice President's spokesman would say.

In the early 1990's the East Timor Action Network spent a good bit of time trying to get the Bush I and Clinton administrations to do something, anything, about the massive, sickening depredations of the Indonesian military against the people of East Timor. When Congress finally got around to passing some small, largely symbolic, but better-than-nothing cuts in small fractions of U.S. military aid to Indonesia, Bereuter opposed it, and after the GOP takeover he used his subcommittee chairmanship to block further efforts to keep up the (quite modest) pressure on the generals in Jakarta from slaughtering unarmed demonstrators, torturing opponents, etc.
So, Doug Bereuter, I'm glad to see you're saying sensible things about Iraq now, but I haven't forgotten your disgusting work from the mid-90's, and I don't believe I've heard or read any apologies, so go Cheney yourself.

me:

That was a grownup argument? The chickenhawk thing?

JR:

This, I can agree with: "I also thought the "grown-up" line was ad hominem, but it isn't. How else to describe strange subset of Republicans that combine virulent social conservatism, aggressive democratic expansion minus diplomacy, and a tax-less spend-more economic agenca. They break from traditional Republican social, economic, foreign policies, and hold it all together with duct tape."

The implication, of course is that Bush's team could help their grown up status by cutting spending. I certainly agree, but I wonder about the locals ...

Contrary to comments about my Karl Rove neck implant above, I despise this administration, but it is important to note that there are plenty of children on both sides of the aisle.

A childish notion to me is that the government actually acts in the interests of the Public Good, whatever that is, no matter who is in office. It seems childish to me to have so much faith in government efficacy that you would actually suggest that all you have to do is legislate everyone into a 'living wage'presumably saying, "Booga Booga! Alacazam!" in the process. It seems somewhat childish to me to argue on one hand that Iraq is the wrong fight, then to argue that N Korea is also the wrong fight, and that, well darn it if only we catch one dude in the hills of Afghanistan the whole problem of terrorists will be over and done. Protectionism is childish. Insistence on a public school monopoly while opposing a Microsoft 'monopoly' is childish. And so on.