http://www.nationwide.net/~amaranth/yellow.htm

Hey, I always thought it was "Knights in White Satin," not "Nights"... I wish I never found out.

Professor Delong, I don't think ANYONE in their right mind, would quantifiably be able to classify you as an ignoramus. Self-loathing perhaps, but a far cry from "extremely ignorant".

In fact, I would say that the ignorance comes to those who edit these songs, and replace politically correct words (although, "colored" is most certainly NOT politically correct) with the original text.

It is of my opinion, that the songs are what they are...A part of history. Not knowing that element of history, is just simply a knowledge issue, and none of us can know everything, can we? But like it or not, we must all accept these things as a part of our history. They teach us about the ignorance of the past. It is only through attempts to erase that history, that we position ourselves to a repeat performance.

Case in point: The Two Dollar Bill

Hey, when I was a Minnesotan's Air Force brat going to elementary school in northern Florida in 1969, I never had a clue as to meaning of the line in "Swanee River" (which, as it was the state song, we were required to sing) that goes, "O, darkies, how my heart grows weary". It wasn't until high school in California when I read a cleaned-up version of the lyrics that it all came back to me.

I never heard "tiger", do you say "If it hollers, not if he hollers? These children counting out rhymes are very interesting.

Original lyrics:

The Yellow Rose of Texas

There's a yellow rose in Texas
That I am going to see
No other darky knows her
No one only me
She cried so when I left her
It like to broke my heart
And if I ever more find her
We nevermore will part.

Chorus:
She's the sweetest rose of color
This darky ever knew
Her eyes are bright as diamonds
They sparkle like the dew
You may talk about dearest May
And sing of Rosa Lee
But the yellow rose of Texas
Beats the belles of Tennessee.

Where the Rio Grande is flowing
And the starry skies are bright
She walks along the river
In the quiet summer night

She thinks if I remember
When we parted long ago
I promised to come back again
And not to leave her so.
Oh now I am agoing to find her
For my heart is full of woe
And we will sing the song together
We sung so long ago
We will play the banjo gaily
And will sing the song of yore
And the yellow rose of Texas
Shall be mine forevermore.
-J.K.

So what do you think “a back door man” is? As in Jim Morrison.

A. Zarkov: I'm not sure what Morrison meant, but a "back door man" in traditional blues lyrics is a married woman's lover.

Prof. DeLong: Another song along those lines is Bob Wills' "Take Me Back to Tulsa," which is a tribute to his African-American girlfriend. You have to know Tulsa's racial boundaries to decode the street references.

Ozoid: The aforementioned Doors song _is_ an old blues song (by Willie Dixon, I think) that the Doors covered.

Ry Cooder did a notable version of the song "Shine" which takes some of the sting away. It's a pretty decent tune, too.

I also didn't know the, um, darker version of "Eeny meeny" until at least adolescence. This strikes me more as progress than ignorance. As a child in the 50's I knew that the "N" word was forbidden long before I learned of other forbidden words.

== I was, after all, a man grown before I realized that "tiger" was not the original word in "eeny meeny miny moe." =====

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eenie_Meenie

Traditionally a “back door man” was a married woman’s lover who escaped by the back door of the house when the husband came home. But see UrbanDictionary.com for other meanings.

BTW I always heard “tiger” and I’m older than De Long. This very matter came up in a lawsuit against an airline because the stewardess said “Eeny, meeny, miny moe” when selecting a seat for a passenger. The passenger being of a dark complexion decided to sue, claiming she meant to humiliate him because everybody is supposed to know rhyme has a racial epithet in its original form. It’s a little similar to the complaint against the restaurant Sambo’s in Santa Barbara. The restaurant name comes from a contraction of the original owners names “Sam Battisone” and Newell Bonnet. The original restaurant used a logo of an (Asian) Indian boy with an umbrella, and a tiger! No says the opposition. They insist the name refers to the children’s book “Little Black Sambo” which they claim demeans Africans even though the book has charmed generations.

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OK, this is important. "Back Door Man" was written by Howlin Wolf (Chester Burnett) not Willie Dixon, though Dixon recorded it. The full lyrics, including those The Doors didn't use, are here:

http://www.theonlineblues.com/howlin-wolf-back-door-man-lyrics.html

Cheers.

As I recall-- I did some digging on this at one point-- the documentary evidence tends to suggest that 'tiger' was original, in England, before the alternate version came into use in the American south. (But I encountered both versions as a kid as late as the 70s-- the bad one in children's books that were still in print and hadn't been edited. Was probably the first time I encountered the relevant slur, actually.)

"the documentary evidence tends to suggest that 'tiger' was original..."

I wonder about that. The "by his toe" line is supposedly a reference to the devil who, having a cloven foot, wouldn't holler if his toe was caught. Tiger makes no sense in that context.

""yellow" is by far the more offensive term,"

I didn't realise the origin of "yellow rose" either. I wonder if Stan Freberg did?

Is it offensive? Barbecue Bob sings in "Chocolate to the Bone" "Black man is evil, yellow man is so low-down..", and there's a dance-hall reggae star called "Yellowman", but I don't hear the term much in the UK. The US seems/seemed far more precise about the racial mix - "quadroon", "octaroon" "Vout-o-Rooney" etc.

I lived in Metairie, Louisiana in the late 1950's. We said "Catch a robber by the toe."

And Zarkov confusesme and maybe more than me : -

"The original restaurant used a logo of an (Asian) Indian boy with an umbrella, and a tiger! No says the opposition. They insist the name refers to the children’s book “Little Black Sambo” which they claim demeans Africans even though the book has charmed generations."

But I thought "Little Black Sambo" was about a little Indian boy, an umbrella and a tiger.

India is indeed the setting for Little Black Sambo. The author was the wife of a British army surgeon stationed in India. In Britain, "black" is a term used to describe (Asian) Indians, and it is also a term I saw Indians self-identify as when I lived there. There are several other things in the book that point to an Indian setting, such as tigers (not native to Africa) and the tigers turning into melted butter (ghee).

I grew up hearing both versions of "Eeny Meenie". The racist language was still commonly used in rural Wisconsin in the 1970s.

I always thought a back door man went in through the back door. So the neighbors wouldn't see him.

The only reference in Take Me Back to Tulsa about race, that I know is

Little bee sucks the blossom, big bee gets the honey,
Dark man picks the cotton, White man gets the money.

It might be true what you said about the song, but I don't see it in the lyrics.

By the way, one of my favorite albums of the last ten years is "The Pine Valley Cosmonauts Salute the Majesty of Bob Wills:
http://www.bloodshotrecords.com/album/pinevalleycosmonauts/57

Brad:

As long as the subject is "who the yellow rose" really is, don't believe any of the hype that the yellow rose is Emily West (Morgan) or Emily West De Zavala. The former the object of a racist and mysogenistic legend about the battle of San Jacinto, and the latter the wife of Texas' first VP, Lorenzo De Zavala.

It should be obvious to any reader of the lyrics posted above, that the song does not pay homage to a 19th century Judith heroine of the battle of San Jacinto.

Furthermore, the stories about Emily West (Morgan) and General Santa Anna simpy don't make sense in a historical context, although they do make sense in an allegorical context where West = Judith and Santa Anna = Holofernes and Texas = Israel.

As a Texan, I cannot argue with the Texas = Promised Land metaphor any more than I can pass up an opportunity to yak about obscure Texas folklore.

Also, I don't find the Mitch Miller version of Yellow Rose to be offensive and I like the tune.

(in case html is not allowed, here is the url for the San Jacinto Legend: http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/WW/fwe41.html )

I heard both versions of eenie meenie while I was growing up. And Tiger was not the first one. This would be in the '60's in suburban Boston. The song lyrics is a fascinating discussion. Thanks to all who contributed. And, Brad, now you have a 52 year old who just learned the secrets of the Yellow Rose of Texas.

oddly enough I am just the same age as Brad - growing up in South Africa, the N version of 'eeny meeny' was common, though my parents forbade it. My children know only the tiger version. Recently I read to them an updated version of 'Little Black Sambo', called 'Little Babaji', placed firmly in India. The story was otherwise unchanged, though the illustrations were different, rather a relief given the golliwog-style of the original (yes I remember it).

I never knew about the yellow rose of Texas, either. Colour me innocent..

Like DougT, I grew up outside of Boston in the 1960's and we only knew the 'tiger' version. Like Brad, I didn't know the other until I was a grown man.

I'm 25 and have lived in Texas my whole life. I'd forgotten about the alternate version for Eenie, Meenie in Pulp Fiction. I had never heard that version before and thought it was an alteration just for purposes of the movie.

You think you're embarrassed? I had absolutely no idea about EMMM until this very blog post. God I grew up in the whitest northern suburban way possible, didn't I?

At least this ends 4 decades of wondering why anybody would think a tiger -of all creatures-would "holler" if you grabbed him, rather than simply biting off your arm. Seriously, I was completely baffled by this but as a very shy kid did not ask about it. Now I'm happy I didn't.

That's ok... I didn't even realize Texas was part of the Confederate States until just this past year.

Although I did know all the versions of eenie meenie when I was a child.

I was seven when I learned it (1973). I learned it traumatically -- and learned a valuable lesson.

My family was sitting at the dinner table and we had to pick someone to ... I dunno, fetch something from another room. I volunteered to pick. "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, catch a tiger by the toe..." My father, who didn't hear me clearly but who only knew the darker version of the rhyme and not its sanitized more recent version, stood up and yelled at me -- this seven-year-old boy -- that he would not tolerate that word in his house.

It was many years before I ever saw him angrier.

I was shocked and in tears, not knowing even at all what I'd said, or what he'd thought I said.

But I still look back on that as one of the moments when I established my great respect for him and his values.

I grew up in Philadelphia in the '60s. I didn't hear the tiger version until busing started. I prefer to just do 1 potato 2 potato...

I thought 1 potato was a slur on the Irish and the Catholic propensity for large families?

i thought political correctness was an 80's fad?

Political correctness is a term used by conservatives who apparently think there's no need for our society to have any mores concerning our treatment of group differences. Funny, you'd think that conservatives of all people would realize that that sort of thing IS important...

``I am an ignoramous''? I don't think so. It would take a full lifetime to learn the various racial slurs or euphemistic-slurs of all the regions of a continent, and I don't think it would be very ennobling pursuit.

I grew up in Ohio, and one of the songs we were taught by our middle school music teacher had the following lyrics:

Some folks say a nigger won't steal;
Way down, yonder in the corn field
But I caught a couple in my cornfield;
Way down, yonder in the corn field
De one had a shebbel and de udder had a hoe;
Way down, yonder in the corn field
An' if dat ain't stealin', den I don't know;
Way down, yonder in the corn field.

Wake up Charlie, early in the morn;
I's goin' down to hoe dat corn;
I'll be back when de row am hoed;
Way down, yonder in the corn field.

Makes you proud to be an American, don't it?

This happened throughout the 6th, 7th, and 8th grades, and since I graduated in 1969, the year I first learned to sign like a 'darkie' would have to be 1965 or so.

Thinking back on those days now, I wonder how music class affected the two African-American girls who were required to sit among the whites and sing these sick, ignorant lyrics.

I shudder to think that this was part of my youth, and all the 'good adults' around me said and did nothing about it. Surely they must have known? The school wasn't that big, and the music teacher taught American History, too. Real big on the Civil War, she was, and later she landed on the City School Board.

God help us.

I've been trying to think where I heard the ugly version of eenie meenie. I think the sad thing is that someone heard at school and then used it the next time we needed to but no one new what it meant. Now that is sad. The study of folk songs, tales such as those by the brothers Grimm, and little sayings like eenie meenie are sobering and necessary. This is a wonderful collection of comments.

Furthermore, the stories about Emily West (Morgan) and General Santa Anna simpy don't make sense in a historical context, although they do make sense in an allegorical context where West = Judith and Santa Anna = Holofernes and Texas = Israel.

I've not heard of any solid evidence to back up that anecdote. Since the original lyrics refer to "Dearest Mae" and "Rosalie", two other heroines in songs made by blackface minstrels during the antebellum period, my gut feeling is that the lyricist was praising a fictious character: "You think Tennessee girls are cute? The girls of Texas are far better!"

A site that has the original sheet music to "Yellow Rose of Texas": http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=016.147.000&pages=5

"Yellow" girls are exotic objects of male desire in antebellum minstrelsy, whereas black women were primarily reserved for comedy. Female roles were primarily played by men in this period of minstrelsy, although women occasionally appeared as members in some troupes. Even more rare are all-female troupes during this period. For example, I've seen ads for the Female Serenaders in an Alexandria, VA, newspaper during the ACW. The implication in those ads was that the women were sex objects first, musicians/comedians/dancers second.

Blackface minstrelsy confronted issues of race, gender, and class and provides some fascinating insights into antebellum American society--both repellant and intriguing.

Thanks to the commenters from Ohio, Boston, Wisconsin and elsewhere for the reminder that anti-black racism was (and probably is) by no means confined to the South. Especially for readers from outside the US, this is all too often overlooked.

I'm from Britain & only ever heard it as catch a n.... so I think it unlikely that tiger was the original pre-American version. It is possible that my version was re-imported from the US possible but unlikely.

Um...I've read this entire comment thread, and the one at Making Light, and still don't know why "yellow" is offensive. Will have to search the web somehow.

[it means 1/4 - 1/16 Black]

I had also never known that "eenie meenie" et cetera had a non-tiger version until reading this thread.

Age: 22

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