I like thruthsayers. He ain't beating around the arbusto. That's why our Armed Services are so in favor of military solutions, because they get to kick some towelhead ass!

Something to keep in mind for countries that consider phasing out mandatory military service.

Wanting to kill the enemy is an unsound method?

[It is if you're trying to win hearts and minds and being a military police force.]

I think the comparison you want is from Patton:

"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

In all fairness to soldiers (and cops), they need this twisted and aggressive mentality to do well in their jobs.

[Not cops. Cops need to be calm. And the same holds true for military police suppressing an urban insurgency. Hearts and minds.]

But, it's no excuse at the end for this kind of stupid azz racism. If so, why not just say the soldiers are there to rid of towelheads and they are nothing to us more than killer pitbulls keeping the law so that others can do the good work? Say that the humanitarian and good political deeds will be done by the US civilian leadership, so you towelheads and gangstas must keep away from our modern day US 'Cossacks'. So, it's ok if we kill some towel-head children in collateral damage, right?

This is why the commander in chief of USA is a civilian. Rage, racism and hatred fuels good police and military people, but hey they do a good job of executing violence when needed.

Let them keep saying psycho stuff like, 'mmm, I love napalm in the morning...'

Patton of course was quoted prior to Korea, Nam and likely Iraq

I have no problem with his comments at all. He's a fighter, he's good at it, it's to be expected. End of story.

[Which is why he has no business being a non-Arabic speaking military policeman in Iraq today.]

Funny, when all is said and done it will be police intelligence and police action that win the 'war on terrorism'. This military stuff is just very very expensive entertainment.

The real problem with America is that the last war that really hurt the country was in the 1860s. American's will whine about how much they suffered during WW2 but the simple fact is that they experienced nothing like what happened to Russia or China or Germany or Japan or, in more recent times, Korea, Vietname or now Iraq. And so you have a whole population that quite literally perceives war as nothing but a video-game.

This won't hurt them much while they pick on the weakest of the weak to beat up (places like Iraq and Syria) but one expects that one day, either through miscalculation or, more likely, through believing their own propaganda, they'll pick on someone who isn't quite so powerless.

In the meantime, perhaps the best the sane Americans can do is try to persuade their lunatic acquaintances to read some Alan Furst and get to learn just what real war is like for everyone, soldier and civilian.

ebodevo> If so, why not just say the soldiers are there to rid of towelheads and they are nothing to us more than killer pitbulls keeping the law so that others can do the good work?

Because that would be "speaking with candor," which we know is something only U.S. Marine Corps officers are permitted to do in our society.

The rest of us must never say out loud something like that. Instead, we must adhere strictly to language discipline and damn the soldiers with faint praise, e.g. "they are fighting the terrorists there so that we don't have to fight them here," and "we are unspeakably proud of their singular bravery and heroism in making such a profound sacrifice on our behalf."

Remember, service guarantees citizenship.

A bit tangential, but a few commenters are conflating Marines and beat cops --- "Rage, racism and hatred fuels good police. ... " Sure, nobody lives in Mayberry, but I sure as hell don't support an enraged and racist police force.

As for the Marines, well, it's good for guys like that to be able to earn an honest living and channel their energies.

Maynard Handley,

I agree with you.

But I don't know when people here will truly understand wars. Our super military power is corrupting the entire nation because it makes the relative costs so uneven, this is "power corrupts" in a national level.

At least Kurtz acknowledged the horror.

pat,
I don't know when people here will truly understand the plight of those who live under totalitarian governments. Were we wrong in Bosnia? Afghanistan? Was the American military wrong to serve in Europe during the Cold War?

Do you know anyone who serves or has served in the military?

There's a difference between giving a pep talk and basically encouraging competition (Patton) and making the case for unadultered bloodlust.

Plus, the audiences were different.

--Neil S:
>Do you know anyone who serves or has served in the military?

Basic infantry & trained to lob nuclear shells into the way of advancing Warshaw Pact tanks in the Fulda gap.

Felix,
Thank you for your service. I agree that the General's remarks are repugnant and inexcusable.

My post was specifically in reference to Pat's remark "Our super military power is corrupting the entire nation because it makes the relative costs so uneven, this is "power corrupts" in a national level."

I believe that the military power of the United States has been, on balance, an extremely positive force in the world over the last 65 years, and that in the absence of our "Super military force" the world would be much more violent and dangerous.

Regards,

Now you know why they are called Jarheads.

Darn! I forgot my marine pilot joke. How does a marine pilot know he has landed with wheels up? Ans: He has to taxi in military power. This one came from my Navy pilot friend( Vietnam, E6A, Hanoi).

[Be polite]

"Heh. I've heard strikingly similar rhetoric coming from college feminst groups. Context is everything, I suppose."

But rhetoric isn't everything. It doesn't put big bloody holes in people for "a hoot."

"Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards."

Unless his last name happens to be Bush, in which case he will be constantly promoted, subsidized and coddled, until he eventually becomes an object of cult worship for about 40% of the population.

Is this a great country or what?

" 'Wanting to kill the enemy is an unsound method?'

"[It is if you're trying to win hearts and minds and being a military police force.]"

We're not trying to win the hearts and minds of the jerks, we're trying (and succeeding) in killing them. Given all those ink-stained fingers in Iraq, I'd say a majority of Iraqi's are understanding the difference.

As a Marine grunt combat veteran of Vietnam (21 months) I can say that there is a certain "hoot" about shooting at other people, until you realize that the bastards are shooting back and this ain't the backyard or the woods with sticks for rifles anymore. After that it becomes terror, controlled terror, but terror nonetheless.

Obviously, as someone who chose to stay in Vietnam longer than required, there was a certain something that kept me there; maybe it was the excitement, maybe it was the tax free dollars. But whatever it was, I never realized that 31 years after returning, I would still be cast back there involuntarily as often as I am.

The excitement exacts a toll on the psyche and I think even more so in the case of this current fiasco. Aside from the Tet Offensive of 1968 and the heavy street fighting experienced by the Marines in Hue City, most of us fought in villes and in the jungles. This "war" is going to produce men and women who experience post traumatic stress just walking in an urban environment if the conditions are right. I wouldn't want to go on vacation to Spain or Morocco with any of these folks in the near future, or to Antigua, for that matter.

Let's see: Bosnia-were we justified in polluting the environment with weapons of mass destruction, depleted uranium, and in supporting a bunch of drug smuggling thugs? Ditto for Afghanistan. Noticed how the production of heroin poppies has skyrocketed since the Bush administration sanctioned the return of the warlords to power?

To the extent that the Soviet Union was more concerned with producing enough food to feed its own people and with protecting itself from the ever-ready, ever bellicose United States, were we right to stay in Cold War Europe? That particular adventure served to artifically inflate the GDP by focusing on military spending, including Truman et al's use of a fabricated Soviet threat in 1948 to subsidize the dying aircraft industry, sort of akin to the Bush administration's bailout of the failing airline industry in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

The mistake this Marine made: He spoke in public what many of these commanders only say in private groups or through intermediaries.

"Were we wrong in Bosnia? Afghanistan? Was the American military wrong to serve in Europe during the Cold War?"

1) Yes, though in fact the US supplied very few troops in Bosnia what they mainly did was to fill Sarajevo's hotels with CIA agents supplying guns to our al Quaeda allies.
2) No because that war was fought not for the good of the locals but for revenge against our al Quaeda enemies.
3) Probably. Assuming Stalin never cared about invading western Europe

[Why would one assume that? If Stalin had believed he could pick up western Europe on the cheap through military means, he would certainly have done so.]

then the Cold War was about the Soviets threatening Europe with their army purely as a deterrent for US threatening them with the Bomb purely as a deterrent for them threatening Europe with their army..........

Matt regarding uranium - that wasn't Bosnia - it was Kosovo where we dumped uranium to help our genocidal drug smuggling al Quaeda friends.

[I have friends who served in Kosovo: this is a lie and a libel]

Kosovo was the one fought because we believe, as a matter of principle that Albanians have the right of seccession, Bosnia was the one fought because we believe as a matter of principle that Serbs don't (& moslem former members of the SS do) & didn't need uranium.

"Wanting to kill the enemy is an unsound method?

[It is if you're trying to win hearts and minds and being a military police force.]"

But Marines aren't MPs.

I agree that using Marines as MPs is an unsound method. More likely no method at all. But that's a criticism of the leadership, not the Marines.

Don't criticise Marines for being Marines.

That is not a racist comment, that is a confessionalist (religiousist?) comment. There is a difference. He wants to shoot people who abuse women, because they abuse women, and not because their skin collor is darker (or lighter, if he's black) then his.

Huh, apparently Neil Craig is unaware of the existance of the US nuclear umbrella.

As for the Marine, I think his comment is fine. He should be completely ok with killing the 'insurgents' who are trying to sow chaos. His comment is only racist if noting that it is bad to beat the crap out of women is racist. That view also implies that beating the crap out of women is an essential component of being Muslim. Anyone want to defend that?

I for one am not at all appalled by the comments. The purpose of the Marines is to kill people. The purpose of armies is to kill people and destroy things. This is why Iraq is so screwed up. Bush is using troops trained to kill people and destroy things to support a bankrupt policy in Iraq.

This is why we have civilian control of our military. They are cold blooded killers only to be unleashed when absolutely necessary. This is why Bush was wrong to unleash them on Iraq in the first place and is wrong to abuse the Marines for duties in Iraq that they do not own.

Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan were all justified based on the consequences of doing nothing. Doing nothing in Bosnia would have meant a lot more ethnic cleansing and genocide. Doing nothing in Kosovo would have unleashed an unmanageable tide of refugees into Italy and the rest of Europe. Osama and his training camps needed to be dismantled. The aftermath of Afghanistan and lack of follow up is a problem, but pushing al Qaeda out had to be done.

I see no difference between General's comments and those would expect from an urban gang member. Indeed, the gang member would probably show more professionalism, less glee in killing and less zeal in the inclusiveness of those dserving slaughter, which appears to include millions of male Moslems.

There are well-known quotations by military leaders to the effect that war is fun, including Lee's dark comment to Longstreet and Patton's pep-talks. But even Patton recognized that there were necessary restraints, reflected in general laws and treaties as well as the specific rules of engagement. Comments like the General's, as well as the recent endorsement of torture by the electorate, perhaps reflect a change in public attitudes.

"That is not a racist comment, that is a confessionalist (religiousist?) comment. There is a difference. He wants to shoot people who abuse women, because they abuse women, and not because their skin collor is darker (or lighter, if he's black) then his."

Well, no. He wants to shoot people. When he gets the chance he'll use whatever excuse comes handy.

According to Dexter Filkins, in Baghdad, as a Vietnam General put it, 'their hearts and minds follow':

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/06/weekinreview/06filk.html?pagewanted=print&position=

---------quote----------
Hachim Shahir, an 83-year-old bricklayer standing in line for hours to vote, was asked how it had been possible for somebody like him to arrive at such a late stage in life without ever having voted, and now finally to have cast a ballot. He thought for a long while, then answered: "America - it was America that did it."

And how did he feel about that?

"America will be good if it completes what it came here to do, to bring us democracy, and then it goes home," Mr. Shahir said. "The main thing now is that they keep their promises, and leave. Personally, I believe they will do it."
--------endquote--------

This sounds like one of those touching, heartwarming stories that Friedman um composes. Giving Filkins benefit of doubt, we can assume that his interpreter got a good chuckle out of it.

OK - so he may have been mistaken about the WMDs: here are the general's words to our marines at the start of the war in Iraq. Naysayers and cowards who hide in the fog of confusion - beware. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

For decades, Saddam Hussein has tortured, imprisoned, raped, and murdered the Iraqi people; invaded neighboring countries without provocation; and threatened the world with weapons of mass destruction. The time has come to end his reign of terror. On your young shoulders rest the hopes of mankind.

When I give you the word, together we will cross the Line of Departure, close with those forces that choose to fight, and destroy them. Our fight is not with the Iraqi people, nor is it with members of the Iraqi army who choose to surrender. While we will move swiftly and aggressively against those who resist, we will treat all others with decency, demonstrating chivalry and soldierly compassion for people who have endured a lifetime under Saddam's oppression.

Chemical attack, treachery, and use of the innocent as human shields can be expected, as can other unethical tactics. Take it all in stride. Be the hunter, not the hunted: never allow your unit to be caught with its guard down. Use good judgment and act in the best interests of our Nation.

You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon. Share your courage with each other as we enter the uncertain terrain north of the Line of Departure. Keep faith in your comrades on your left and right and Marine Air overhead. Fight with a happy heart and strong spirit.

For the mission's sake, our country's sake, and the sake of the men who carried the Division's colors in past battles—who fought for life and never lost their nerve—carry out your mission and keep your honor clean. Demonstrate to the world there is "No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy" than a U.S. Marine.

Major General J. N. Mattis, U.S. Marines

Here is an email I sent to a Mattis "Supporter" Find the Arab News article, it's a real hoot you know.

Dear Col. Anderson,

I read an article in the Arab News highlighting your defense of Lt. General Mattis. I would like to add that I am a former Marine officer myself. I served from 1984-1988. I was a graduate of the PLC Jr./Sr. program in 1981 and 1983.

I can not tell you how bitter and ashamed I feel over the remarks made by Gen. Mattis. His remarks have now been published in over 500 newspapers world wide! As a former Marine trained at the very facility the General now commands, I can not understand people like you defending the indefensible. This story is all over the Arab press. This has no doubt helped recruiting efforts of those opposed to the US in Iraq. How many will die because of the General's loose lips?

Never in my time in the USMC did I ever hear a senior leader speak like this! We were constantly taught how horrible the costs of war are to humanity at large. We as Marines were taught at Quantico that human life has value. A man who considers it fun to shoot people (Especially when he had every major advantage in the fight, Iraq is not Tarawa!) does not get it. His words were not taken out of context. I saw the video of the General, and these are his words. He displayed glee. His face was lit up like a little boy. Words have power! This story can not and should not be SPUN by the Marine Corps. The General said what he said.

Every veteran I have spoken with has made it clear to me the General is way out of line and unfit to be a leader of Marines. His combat record is No defense for his bad judgment. The General has played his hand and shown the world who he really is. I am ashamed of the way the Marine Corps has handled this whole rotten affair. Do you think the President is pleased with General Mattis? General Mattis has stained the very honor of the men he leads. "To keep our honor clean" What a mockery the General has made of Marines Hymn.

This is perhaps the poorest display of judgment I have ever seen by a Marine General. Now the talk radio people are telling people all over America, the General has it right, "They should have fun killing these people, it's their job." This type of garbage even makes it worse. It makes Marines look cold blooded. I will bet you that these statements by the General will ultimately end up in Bartlett's quotations, and hence forth will be a stain on the Marine Corps for years and years to come.

Colonel you have entered the ring on this, and I do not think it will die down soon. I live in Arizona, and people have contacted Senator McCain's office regarding this matter.

The only solution is for General Mattis to go away quietly. What credibility does he now have at Quantico? Is he going to lecture others on moral behavior in general? He will be seen as an hypocrite. Will he be able to teach Marines the moral duties they have to the human beings they are fighting? Are you saying that because men in Afghanistan treat women horribly, they should be shot on site with out a trial? Do Marines now go into wars making the rules of who lives and dies based on their personal moral agenda? Should Marines conduct raids on the Porno industry in California and shoot them on site because they don't like the way women are being abused in the production of pornography? Should all men in the USA who abuse women be shot by Marines with out a trial? What is all this saying Colonel? Seems the General makes it clear he goes by his own rule of the gun, not the rule of law (UCMJ) enacted by the will of the people at large. Are not our Marines dying almost daily in Iraq fighting so democracy can emerge there?

This issue will not die. As a matter in fact it has opened a can of worms. The tooth paste is out of the tube. The remarks made by General Mattis will live in infamy. He will from now on be known as the General who says, it's "fun to kill people." He has thoroughly embarrassed the President, and Secretary of Defense! The President is constantly telling the world that we are a compassionate people who believe in the sanctity of human life! When people in high positions such as Gen. Mattis state that it's fun to shoot people (for any reason what so ever), we have lost it. The General sounds like an SS officer of another sad time in history.

I am convinced that these remarks will now cause an intensified effort to kill Marines in Iraq! These men who the General made clear "Got no manhood" will want to show Marines how much they have their manhood. The General is actually helping the enemy with his macho stupidity, and extreme lack of judgment.

In my opinion Colonel, the remarks you made in the Arab News do not make you look very smart. Your argument is weak, and will not hold much water. My bet is that the President is furious with General Mattis, and actions will be taken. The man is an embarrassment to the United States. He does not reflect the moral character of the entire American people at large, nor the highest standards of moral leadership required of men who are the ultimate managers of violence. This was not some drunk 18 year old PFC making these statements, it was a Lt. General in UNIFORM, who just happens to command the most important training command in the USMC! War is the last resort among people. Innocent women, children and the elderly are killed and horribly wounded for life, because they just happened to get in the way. It is never fun, NEVER! When our military leaders start saying it's fun, we have become a sick and depraved people only worthy of the harshest judgment brought down by our Creator. This is a sad time for the history of the United States. General Mattis is a disgrace to the uniform he wears, and to the people he leads.

[troll]

[troll]

As a 63 year old Marine I can only say that I deeply regret that I can't participate in the killing of the islamofacist cowards. It would be a pleasure for me to send as many of them as possible to meet allah. "It is God's job to judge bin laden, it is our job to arrange the meeting." Semper Fi

I hope our troops get home before the Iraq's find
out that Noah Feldman, a Jewish American university professer, is the chef architect of there future constitution. Kind of like Geronimo having Gen Custer as his defense atorney.

Just wondering. But why do well all have standing armies anyways?

Sure you can say to uproot tyranny. But then why arent our resources poured into Latin America, hell our own neighbor (mexico) is inherently corrupt.

And since when is our view on what is right...well right?

is it because we helped win WW2?

and since then we've needed to be Big Daddy of the planet?

how about we take a chill. sit back, and say hey if you want to take on us. Come to us and then we'll talk. otherwise, lets not SEND people to places THEY'VE never been. fighting against and for people THEYVE never seen. for causes that WE dont even like. I thought our Government was Federal and the States Decided what Proper action to take.

[troll]

It's wildly apperant that non of you understand what is outside the border of the US. And the comments made by MGen Mattis are misinterpreted. The people we are in conflict with are pure evil. Having seen the beast up close and personnal it makes killing him a whole lot easier. Don't sit on the couch watching propaganda TV and make assumptions on issues you have not investigated thouroughly using un-biased information. You can't simply watch the news and expect that to be the real deal. It is not and never will be. Here is a scenerio. If your neighbor beats the hell out of his wife and then rapes his kids what do you think should be done about it? Now picture that happening in 70% of the country and if you try to stand up against it you have body parts removed in a sports arena as a deterent to others who feel raping and murdering there family is wrong. This is what a large part of the world outside of the US is like. And as Americans we have to take responsibility and get involved becuase every other country will either exploit the situation for personal gain like the oil for food program and what the French are doing in Africa or the countries that want to do the right thing just but don't have the means.

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