Max Sawicky applauds and guides us to a smart piece by Michael Berube on America's loony left today:
POLITICSBoston Globe Online: Print it!: ...They did not cheer the collapse of the World Trade Center; that is simple slander. But they did argue, to their shame, that the US military response was even more morally odious than the hijackers' deliberate slaughter of civilians. Some antiwar protesters were 19-year-old anarchists, some were devout Quakers, and some were Trotskyite diehards; but some were America's most distinguished dissidents at home and abroad, like Howard Zinn and Gore Vidal. And the antiwar left's arguments against war were simply astonishing. As Z Magazine contributor Cynthia Peters wrote last October, the operation that wrested control of Afghanistan from Al Qaeda and the Taliban was a ''calculated crime against humanity that differs from September 11th only in scale; that is: it is many times larger.''
Obtuse arguments like these, combined with the paranoid insistence that the United States had long planned strikes against the Taliban in order to secure an Afghan oil pipeline (a claim thoroughly debunked by Ken Silverstein in The American Prospect), have damaged the anti-imperialists' cause immeasurably. The anti-imperialist left correctly believes, for instance, that the American bombing of Kakrak in early July (a massive ''intelligence failure'' that killed about 50 Afghans attending a wedding party) was an atrocity; but it cannot admit that, on balance, the routing of the Taliban might have struck a blow, however ambiguous and poorly executed, for human freedom.
Accordingly, The Nation, the most mainstream of journals on the progressive left, has become remarkably ambivalent about what it means to be a progressive leftist. On one page of its Sept. 2 issue, an unsigned editorial titled ''Iraq: The Doubters Grow'' asks whether we will leave Iraq in chaos ''as we have done in Afghanistan.'' On the very next page, an editorial by Anthony Borden and John West of the Institute for War and Peace Reporting details the chaos of Kabul yet acknowledges that ''conditions are vastly improved from the circumstances of only a few months ago - when the country was plagued by severe persecution and increasing food shortages with seemingly no hope.'' Perhaps we have not brought disaster to Afghanistan after all; it's hard to tell here. Still further left, the Counterpunch and Z Magazine stalwarts have kept their self-assurance but have lost their credibility - not with the Bush administration, of course, which had no plans to read Noam Chomsky's complete works before settling on an Iraq policy, but with much of the rest of the progressive left, among whose ranks I include myself.
For leftists like me who had long considered Chomsky as our own beacon of moral clarity, it is hard to say which development is more catastrophic: the fact that Chomsky-bashing has become a major political pastime, or the fact that Chomsky has become so very difficult to defend. Chomsky's response to the war in Afghanistan offered a repellent mix of hysteria and hauteur, as in this early interview: ''The U.S. has already demanded that Pakistan terminate the food and other supplies that are keeping at least some of the starving and suffering people of Afghanistan alive. If that demand is implemented, unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest connection to terrorism will die, possibly millions. Let me repeat: the U.S. has demanded that Pakistan kill possibly millions of people who are themselves victims of the Taliban. This has nothing to do even with revenge. It is at a far lower moral level even than that. The significance is heightened by the fact that this is mentioned in passing, with no comment, and probably will hardly be noticed. We can learn a great deal about the moral level of the reigning intellectual culture of the West by observing the reaction to this demand.'' By the same token, we can learn a great deal about the moral level of the antiwar left by observing its willingness to debate claims like these; over the past year, unfortunately, Chomsky and his followers have demonstrated rather little capacity for self-criticism. It is not permissible, apparently, to argue that Chomsky was right about Vietnam, Nicaragua, and East Timor but wrong about Afghanistan; those who fail to acknowledge Chomsky's infallibility about Afghanistan are guilty of thought-crime or conservatism, whichever is worse.
Most likely the hard left's myopia and intransigence will not matter to most Americans - that is, those who never trusted the judgment of Chomsky or Z Magazine in the first place and don't see why it matters now that anti-imperialists have lost a ''credibility'' they never had in some quarters. But the reason it should matter, even in parts of America where there are no campuses, no anti-Sharon rallies, and no subscribers to Counterpunch, is that the United States cannot be a beacon of freedom and justice to the world if it conducts itself as an empire...
Why the left can't get Iraq right
By Michael Berube, 9/15/2002
The Bush administration is trying to persuade ''allies'' like Saudi Arabia to sign up for Gulf War II, but somebody keeps dropping hints to the Washington Post that when Iraq goes down, the Rand Corp. will advise the president that the kingdom should go next. On Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, they tell the world that they desire nothing more than the liberation of oppressed Iraqis, but on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, their cheerleaders in the press bellow that what the Islamic world needs now is a crushing, humiliating military defeat that will bring a useful chaos to the part of the world running roughly from the West Bank to Islamabad.
Such is the position of the war party. To gauge by the president's speech to the United Nations Thursday, the administration actually has a serious case to make against Saddam Hussein's violations of UN resolutions; but then again, the administration does not always hold UN resolutions in such high regard, and according to the White House chief of staff, Andrew Card, has waited so long to make its case because August is a bad time for new product placement. And you would think that if the president was having a hard time making his case to the Republican policy elite, let alone the UN, it would be a simple matter for the American left to rally popular opposition to the war as well.
You might think that, but you'd be wrong. Most liberals in Congress are either mumbling under their breath or speaking up only to call for a ''debate'' they themselves are unwilling to begin; the progressive left has been noisier, but the progressive left has its own problems, mired as it is in an Afghanistan quagmire of its own making. It would be a positive service to democracy if left-wing public intellectuals would take the lead where elected liberals cannot or will not, urging their fellow Americans that the war on terrorism requires many things - peace in Israel and Palestine, an end to the United States' long-term addiction to oil - before it requires any regime change in Iraq. But the left is having some trouble providing that service, because one wing of it actually supports military intervention in Iraq, while another wing opposes all military interventions regardless of their objectives.
The left has been divided before, but rarely has it been at once so vehement and so incoherent as this. On one side are the internationalists who find themselves emboldened by laudable military interventions in Kosovo and Afghanistan, which used US air power - but not ground troops - to overthrow two of the worst regimes on the planet. Some, like Michael Walzer of Dissent magazine, have already signed on for another Mission for Good in Iraq, becoming even more hawkish than most of the first Bush administration; others, like The Nation columnist Christopher Hitchens, have tentatively suggested that the United States might do well to consider that ''you can't subject the Iraqi people to the cruelty of sanctions for so long while leaving the despot in place.'' (Hitchens notes that since the United States has intervened on Saddam Hussein's behalf in the past, ''there is at least a potential argument that an intervention to cancel such debts would be justifiable.'' Who could have imagined that Hitchens and his lifelong nemesis Henry Kissinger would wind up sitting on the same fence, each refusing to look at the other?)
On the other side are the anti-imperialists who opposed the war in Afghanistan in stark and unyielding terms. They did not cheer the collapse of the World Trade Center; that is simple slander. But they did argue, to their shame, that the US military response was even more morally odious than the hijackers' deliberate slaughter of civilians. Some antiwar protesters were 19-year-old anarchists, some were devout Quakers, and some were Trotskyite diehards; but some were America's most distinguished dissidents at home and abroad, like Howard Zinn and Gore Vidal. And the antiwar left's arguments against war were simply astonishing. As Z Magazine contributor Cynthia Peters wrote last October, the operation that wrested control of Afghanistan from Al Qaeda and the Taliban was a ''calculated crime against humanity that differs from September 11th only in scale; that is: it is many times larger.'' Obtuse arguments like these, combined with the paranoid insistence that the United States had long planned strikes against the Taliban in order to secure an Afghan oil pipeline (a claim thoroughly debunked by Ken Silverstein in The American Prospect), have damaged the anti-imperialists' cause immeasurably. The anti-imperialist left correctly believes, for instance, that the American bombing of Kakrak in early July (a massive ''intelligence failure'' that killed about 50 Afghans attending a wedding party) was an atrocity; but it cannot admit that, on balance, the routing of the Taliban might have struck a blow, however ambiguous and poorly executed, for human freedom.
Accordingly, The Nation, the most mainstream of journals on the progressive left, has become remarkably ambivalent about what it means to be a progressive leftist. On one page of its Sept. 2 issue, an unsigned editorial titled ''Iraq: The Doubters Grow'' asks whether we will leave Iraq in chaos ''as we have done in Afghanistan.'' On the very next page, an editorial by Anthony Borden and John West of the Institute for War and Peace Reporting details the chaos of Kabul yet acknowledges that ''conditions are vastly improved from the circumstances of only a few months ago - when the country was plagued by severe persecution and increasing food shortages with seemingly no hope.'' Perhaps we have not brought disaster to Afghanistan after all; it's hard to tell here. Still further left, the Counterpunch and Z Magazine stalwarts have kept their self-assurance but have lost their credibility - not with the Bush administration, of course, which had no plans to read Noam Chomsky's complete works before settling on an Iraq policy, but with much of the rest of the progressive left, among whose ranks I include myself.
For leftists like me who had long considered Chomsky as our own beacon of moral clarity, it is hard to say which development is more catastrophic: the fact that Chomsky-bashing has become a major political pastime, or the fact that Chomsky has become so very difficult to defend. Chomsky's response to the war in Afghanistan offered a repellent mix of hysteria and hauteur, as in this early interview: ''The U.S. has already demanded that Pakistan terminate the food and other supplies that are keeping at least some of the starving and suffering people of Afghanistan alive. If that demand is implemented, unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest connection to terrorism will die, possibly millions. Let me repeat: the U.S. has demanded that Pakistan kill possibly millions of people who are themselves victims of the Taliban. This has nothing to do even with revenge. It is at a far lower moral level even than that. The significance is heightened by the fact that this is mentioned in passing, with no comment, and probably will hardly be noticed. We can learn a great deal about the moral level of the reigning intellectual culture of the West by observing the reaction to this demand.'' By the same token, we can learn a great deal about the moral level of the antiwar left by observing its willingness to debate claims like these; over the past year, unfortunately, Chomsky and his followers have demonstrated rather little capacity for self-criticism. It is not permissible, apparently, to argue that Chomsky was right about Vietnam, Nicaragua, and East Timor but wrong about Afghanistan; those who fail to acknowledge Chomsky's infallibility about Afghanistan are guilty of thought-crime or conservatism, whichever is worse.
Most likely the hard left's myopia and intransigence will not matter to most Americans - that is, those who never trusted the judgment of Chomsky or Z Magazine in the first place and don't see why it matters now that anti-imperialists have lost a ''credibility'' they never had in some quarters. But the reason it should matter, even in parts of America where there are no campuses, no anti-Sharon rallies, and no subscribers to Counterpunch, is that the United States cannot be a beacon of freedom and justice to the world if it conducts itself as an empire. Nor can we fight Al Qaeda networks in 60 countries if we alienate our allies in Europe, who so far seem to be much more capable of finding and arresting members of Al Qaeda than is our own Justice Department.
The antiwar left once knew well that its anti-imperialism was in fact a form of patriotism - until it lost its bearings in Kosovo and Kabul, insisting beyond all reason that those military campaigns were imperialist wars for oil or regional power. And why does that matter? Because in the agora of public opinion, the antiwar left never claimed to speak to pragmatic concerns or political contingencies: for the antiwar left, the moral ground was the only ground there was. So when the antiwar left finds itself on shaky moral ground, it simply collapses.
In foreign affairs both left and right claim to speak for the conscience of America, but on Iraq the right has no moral clarity and the left has lost its moral compass. This is not a problem for the masters of realpolitik, who have long since inured themselves to the task of doing terrible things to human beings in the course of pursuing the national interest; but it is utterly devastating to those few souls who still dream that the course of human events should be judged - and guided - by principles common to many nations rather than by policies concocted by one. The emergence of the antiwar right, however, may yet hold a lesson for the left, insofar as it relies on Brent Scowcroft's internationalism rather than Pat Buchanan's isolationism: The challenge, clearly, is to learn how to be strenuously anti-imperialist without being indiscriminately antiwar. It is a lesson the American left has never had to learn - until now.
Michael Brub is a professor of American literature at Penn State
This story ran on page E1 of the Boston Globe on 9/15/2002.
Posted by DeLong at September 15, 2002 07:15 PM
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Chomsky's "infallibility" comes from the fact that his views are seen as holy writ by his followers and no amount of reasoning can change their minds.
We should be concerned with the marginal people out there, not the inframarginals...
Posted by: EcoDude on September 16, 2002 05:39 AMI don't know why the left keeps raising the topic of 'what ails the left'.
Post Cold War, the left's most cohesive force is Anti-Americanism. So of course the left is going to have moral problems when the US finds a monster to destroy. There is nothing remarkable at all about this.
The left hasn't adjusted to the fact that something that was a strategy in the Cold War (villifying the US) is now their main ideological position. Berube is really criticising Chomsky, Zinn, Z-mag, etc. for great 'message discipline'.
Berube probably understands this at some level. What actually is troubling him, I think, is that Anti-Americanism is marginalizing the left among large parts of the intelligencia.
But so what? It is factually incorrect that the US is the major source of evil on the planet. The left shouldn't expect to have much impact on public discourse.
Posted by: Arheles on September 16, 2002 11:52 AMWhy is it that leftist people are always their own worse ennemies?
While we debate the Afghan war, its merits, and why it happened, the rest of the world does not have a doubt about these things.
Why is it so hard for Michael Berube to understand that some people genuinely abhore war and violence in all its form, and consider it by definition imperialist abuse? What part in "we don't like innocent people to die" doesn't he understand?
This is an illuminating piece about why American leftist thinking never makes it to mainstream media. It's killed in the egg by rhynos who think they're lefties, by virtue of being to the left to George W Bush, I guess...
As Europeans always joke about, in America you have a choice between voting for the right and the extreme-right. But the funniest thing, is that the American right thinks of itself as the left :-D
Posted by: Jean-Philippe Stijns on September 16, 2002 12:02 PMI don't think Chomsky was right in his opposition to the Afghan war, but he was right to warn of the danger of famine and of Bush Administration indifference. Chomsky's main flaw was in using highly inflated rhetoric, a tactic you tend to find across the political spectrum. He (or perhaps it was Michael Albert) talked as though it was likely that millions might die. In fact, Oxfam was saying that perhaps 100,000 might die as a result of food aid being cut off.
The danger was real. The Bush Administration initially cut off food aid, as reported in the NYT and repeated by Chomsky. The aerial food drops were a joke. And for a few weeks the Taliban seemed unexpectedly resilient--Rumsfeld began saying that the war could drag on for months, possibly as long as 23 months (i.e., less than 2 years.) If the war had dragged on through the winter, the death toll might have been enormous.
And there still were an increase in famine deaths from the war. There was one Guardian article I remember where in one refugee camp of about 300,000, the death toll was around 100 per day. On the Doctors Without Borders website, there is mention made of a study made in Faryab where the mortality rate went from 0.6 deaths per 10,000 per day in August to 1.4 deaths per 10,000 per day in January. If that increase of 0.8 deaths per 10,000 per day applied to the entire 5-7 million who needed aid, it comes to 500 deaths per day. Perhaps that's too high, but it could easily be too low and no one seems interested in finding out. And finally, there was an article in January or February about an area where thousands died of starvation because aid was cut off. Yes, the article was by a reporter later fired for lying in an earlier article on child slavery, but the NYT claimed to have fact-checked his other pieces and only found two small mistakes.
I still think the Afghan war did the Afghans (and us) more good than harm--removing the Taliban at least gives them a shot at having a decent government and in the long run reduces the mortality rate. But in the short run the bombing certainly increased the famine mortality rate and it could have been much worse.
Posted by: Donald Johnson on September 16, 2002 12:31 PMthanks donald: great response. the mainstream press never debated the morality of killing as many innocent civilians directly and perhaps many more through starvation as were killed on 9/11. that lack of debate is a shame-- not that some on the left were raising it, even if the pitch of the prose was occasionally irritating. i came to the conclusion you have come to: that the war in afghaniustan is defensible, though again, those raising warnings at the time had factual and moral grounding to do so. that such ideas are relegated to the 'ultra-fringe' is testament to disturbing mainstream nationalism, not that such ideas represent anti-american lunacy.
Posted by: timmy on September 16, 2002 02:25 PMOne of Chomsky's correct observations is that the USA is the most ideological country in the world. So we have a situation where the far right has installed an unelected president, where "pundits" with untramelled access to the media call for terrorists to bomb the NYTimes for ideological deviance, where AM radio is a 24/7 rant-a-rama of the extreme right and of course, we line up to ritually denounce Goldstien, um, Chomsky since he has so much power. I think he was even on US TV once in the last year! C'mon, let's get in line and bravely agree that it's beyond the bounds of civilized debate to question the wisdom and motives of our 5-to-4 elected Leader.
Well, not surprisingly, I agree with Citizen K and Timmy. Chomsky and others on the far left are sometimes shrill and sometimes wrong, but I think the main reason they're hated and dismissed is because so often they are right. The fact is that the United States government is often a sponsor of terrorism on a truly massive scale and--forget about a war crimes trial--no politician ever pays a price for it. For instance, early this year Jonas Savimbi died. As Nicholas Kristof and Howard French pointed out in the NYT, Savimbi had personally clubbed children to death. He'd led a guerilla movement that killed 500,000 civilians in the name of anticommunism. He was the darling of the Republican party during the 80's and President Reagan compared him to Abraham Lincoln.
But being a politician in a hyperpower means never having to say you're sorry.
I doubt the NYT was as open about Savimbi's crimes when identifying him as a horrific mass murderer meant condemning the Republican Party as terrorist and genocide supporters. Safer to wait until it's all ancient history and then refer to it 10-15 years later in a couple of columns. If the left is looney, the respectable center and center/left is cowardly and/or complicit and the right is downright murderous.
>>Why is it so hard for Michael Berube to understand that some people genuinely abhore war and violence in all its form, and consider it by definition imperialist abuse? What part in "we don't like innocent people to die" doesn't he understand?<<
I think it is because "we don't like innocent people to die" is read as "we are happy to give Al-Qaeda (and others like them) a hunting license, as long as they are clever enough to hide among innocents." That seems not to be an aversion to innocents dying, but rather permission to kill more Americans.
The pacifist approach has to be accompanied by a codicil: someone has to say "and I am going to Afghanistan to tell the Al-Qaeda leaders that they must not do things like this." That position commands respect...
Posted by: Brad DeLong on September 17, 2002 01:44 PMTalking about the war, why the heck do not the press and democrats call into question the military's incompetence in capturing OBL, Al-Zawahiri and Mullah Omar?
After all, if my military top commander surrounded the Tora-Bora caves and OBL had escaped because there was a decision of using a proxy army that was likely bribed by OBL, that would be grounds for a kick in the butt of the responsible people to say the least.
Posted by: Bordon on September 19, 2002 12:00 PMGood question. Technically, Bush hasn't done a very good job of eliminating terroristic threats.
Posted by: Jason McCullough on September 19, 2002 01:27 PMSorry to have given anyone the impression that I was indifferent to the possibility of famine. Here's what I've written in response to Chomsky's reply to my Boston Globe essay--
Professor Chomsky is quite right to respond that his initial claim was based on a report from the New York Times (of September 16, 2001), and that in the fall of 2001, UN and other aid agencies issued dire warnings about the effect of war on the civilian population of Afghanistan. But he is wrong to ignore the real problems with his claim, and there are two.
First, the interview I cite (conducted on Sept 19 of last year by B92 Radio in Belgrade) gave credence to the charge that the Left had become the blame-America-first party; even to answer the opening question, “why do you think these attacks happened,” Chomsky felt it necessary to accuse the US of *delaying* the USSR’s withdrawal from Afghanistan by funding and arming the mujahedeen in the 1980s. Second, and still more seriously: in October of last year, at the Technology and Culture Forum at MIT,Chomsky used the Times report as the basis for his now-famous claim that the US was engaged in “silent genocide” in Afghanistan. Even his most recent essay on the subject, dated July 2002, continues to protest the interruption of the aid convoys, *even after the fall of the Taliban and the resumption of aid
to Afghan civilians.* Calling this action “genocide” is precisely the kind of political abuse of language against which Chomsky protested so eloquently 30 years ago, and it disappoints me deeply that Chomsky has not found it in himself to admit that his initial response to war in Afghanistan might have been an overreaction. I count myself among those leftists who were, at first, deeply conflicted about the strikes against Afghanistan, and who remain utterly unconvinced that the Bush administration initiated those strikes out of any concern for Afghan schoolgirls. But the outcome of that war, ambiguous and incomplete as it is, should have provoked many more leftists, including Chomsky, to rethink their
willingness to indict the US of war crimes at the very outset – and to consider whether the fall of the Taliban might not have been worth the temporary interruption of aid convoys.
Thanks for reading my thing in the first place.
Posted by: Michael Berube on September 19, 2002 02:07 PMI wonder if anyone will read this. Assuming they will, I'll repeat that I think the war did more good than harm because it overthrew one of the worst governments on earth, the Taliban. But I think all of us who say that are also obligated to report that the temporary stoppage in food shipments killed many thousands of people, and possibly tens of thousands. An increase in famine and refugee deaths was predictable and on a significant scale it happened--it could easily have been much worse if the war had lasted much longer.
Chomsky's rhetoric of genocide was overstated, but past experience with the US government shows quite clearly that their main concern over civilian casualties is in trying to avoid being blamed for them. The sanctions on Iraq are a case in point--try to deny the suffering and then try to put all the blame on Saddam, even though we know the US government originally meant the bombing of water treatment facilities combined with sanctions to be a method of pressuring Saddam by hurting the civilian population. (See Barton Gellman, Washington Post, June 23, 1991). So it was hardly unlikely that the US government would originally think in terms of starving the Afghan people while blaming the famine entirely on the Taliban. And in this country that PR spin would have worked, as it has worked with respect to the sanctions.
So yeah, Chomsky overstated his case and as an admirer I wish he'd come out and say more or less what I just said. But these calls for honesty that appear in the mainstream press ought to go both ways, or it just plays into the hands of the mainstream folks who prefer to dismiss Chomsky when he is right (which is the majority of the time).
Noam Chomsky is not just guilty of exaggerated rhetoric. He is a genuinely evil man, an enemy of everything most Americans hold dear. He is a self-promoting egomaniac, a con man who basks in the admiration of the pseudo-intellectual left and of people in other countries who seek to do us harm.
Chomsky doesn't have the slighest interest in achieving any measurable human good. His writings contain no insight, no understanding of the complex forces in world affairs. He preaches to his church: a church whose only creed is a passionate hatred of the United States, its democratic political system, its people and its culture.
There is nothing positive to be learned from Noam Chomsky, only the viciousness and moral vacuity of the totalitarian left.
Chomsky appeals to people who want to enjoy the benefits of American life while denouncing the country and feeling morally superior to their fellow Americans. Leftism is a particularly inane form of snobbery.
Mr. Willingham,
If that is all you can tell about Chomsky, I cannot tell if you read his works or not, but I am afraid that even if you read, you would not be able to understand it.
Posted by: Bordon on September 20, 2002 09:06 PMAs a Brit who greatly admires the work and writings of Noam Chomsky and other regular contributors to Zmag, I’d be very interested to hear Joe Willingham’s views (above) on exactly what it is that “most Americans hold dear.” All the Americans that I personally know do actually care about issues like poverty and the murder of innocent civilians wherever it happens, despite the best efforts of the media to de-personalise and vilify, be it single mothers or Afghan and Iraqi civilians.
I also, allegedly, live in a country with a ‘democratic’ political system and culture, in addition to having an American girlfriend. As the contributor above pointed out, it seems unlikely that Joe Willingham will be able to grasp such subtleties, but why are critics of the left so unable to distinguish between hatred of American (and British) government policy and the agenda of those who make policy, as distinguished from ‘America’ (or Britain) itself and the people who ‘allegedly’ elected those same leaders to power?
If Chomsky is appealing to people who want to enjoy the benefits of American (or ‘Western’) life, my belief is that this should not be at the expense of others, but that “the course of human events should be judged - and guided - by principles common to many nations rather than by policies concocted by one”, quoting from Michael Berube, above. What is “anti-American” about this?
What a great point above; “[In] America you have a choice between voting for the right and the extreme-right. But the funniest thing, is that the American right thinks of itself as the left”. Sadly, I don’t feel this is so far away from what has happened here, in the UK. In the mainstream media, those merely arguing about tactics, with the focus always on ‘ends’ rather than ‘means’, have usurped the true spokespeople of the ‘left’. It is certainly in keeping with those contributors above who claim to be ‘leftists’, yet seek to justify the war in Afghanistan, retrospectively, on the grounds that it might have achieved some, yet to be demonstrated, good in removing the Taliban, irrespective of the motives behind those who authorised this turkey shoot and of the number of civilians killed either directly or indirectly.
Is anyone able to explain why is murder with intent morally different from murder with indifference?
Posted by: Chris Collins on January 9, 2003 04:29 AM